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  #1801  
Old 12.02.2014, 13:22
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "he would have to advertise/search extensively in Switzerland"

From where do you get "extensively"? In the pre-FMOP days one advert was enough.
Can you point to something in the initiative text that supports "extensively".
I seem to remember the RAV got to advertise those jobs as well, so the poor employer would receive 100 totally unqualified people trying to find their 10 jobs a month to apply for.
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  #1802  
Old 12.02.2014, 13:26
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I seem to remember the RAV got to advertise those jobs as well, so the poor employer would receive 100 totally unqualified people trying to find their 10 jobs a month to apply for.
Indeed, 20 years ago in Zürich I was looking for IT staff and got many applications from ex-tram drivers and similar.
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  #1803  
Old 12.02.2014, 13:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'd like to discuss the topic of trade dependencies a little bit as it's an interesting topic which I believe is widely misunderstood.

First of all the nature of trade between the EU and Switzerland: (all official figures, my comments in [brackets]

2012:
- exports CH-EU 104,564 mio Euros (rank 4 for EU)
4% agricultural products, 96% industrial products, thereof
30% chemicals, 23% precious metals and products [jewelry and watches], 15% machinery and appliances, 10% optical and photographic instruments etc...

- imports CH-EU 133,288 mio Euros (rank 3 for EU) 5% agricultural products, 95% industrial products, thereof 18% precious metals and products, 17% chemicals, 15% machinery etc...

Now what does that mean?
First of all it's clear that consumer products (B2C) are but a small part of CH-EU trade, all the rest is intra-industry trade (B2B), which aren't subject to as many EU regulations as consumer goods.

The second point is the nature of that trade, as we can see Switzerland exports the same product types it imports from the EU, the reason is simple: companies on both sides of the border (Baden-Württemberg is Switzerland's largest trading partner by a wide margin) are incredibly interconnected, they buy raw material and semi-manufactured goods to produce a highly specialized machine, part or tool which is then further used in industrial processes across the border.

Do you really think Germany will endanger the vital supply of machinery, tools and manufactured goods to their exporting industry?

And besides, Switzerland has had a trade deficit with the EU for well over a decade, which has actually widened. The same reason applies here, Switzerland buys semi-manufactured goods and raw material from the EU to then export it internationally, especially to Asia and the US. Agriculture isn't nearly as important as some might think. Germany and Switzerland are economic powerhouses and export leaders because of all these tightly interconnected and highly specialised companies in the South of Germany and (mostly but not only) the North of Switzerland.

In conclusion it's somewhat silly to suggest that the EU can simply stop buying Swiss goods to punish them for misbehaving. Barroso might want to try such a thing, but then again he threatens to do all sorts of things Merkel inevitably won't let him do. Switzerland is an incredibly good customer of EU goods, threatening to change that is not very wise.
About "Barroso might want to try such a thing, but then again he threatens to do all sorts of things Merkel inevitably won't let him do. "

Did you read Barroso's comments in the Press today? It does not look like he will listen to Merkel - you could interpret his comments to mean he will send home the 430,000 Swiss who live in the EU! Link
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  #1804  
Old 12.02.2014, 13:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Well, I had a brief discussion with Josef Deiss (Swiss president 2004) about this last night (as you do). Can't say he's happy about the result, but the next step is precisely how the goverment implements the quotas.

I remember it being the same when I moved here; waiting to see if my application was OK based on the quota.
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  #1805  
Old 12.02.2014, 13:56
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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About "he would have to advertise/search extensively in Switzerland"

From where do you get "extensively"? In the pre-FMOP days one advert was enough.
Can you point to something in the initiative text that supports "extensively".
I never said there was anything in the initiative on this. I merely pointed out the what may be decided is to make the process more like the one for non-EU hiring as outlined here:

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...zulassung.html

"Moreover, the employer must explain to the authorities why the search for a suitable candidate by means of the recruitment channels used in the specific industry, such as specialist journals, employment agencies, online job listings or corporate websites, etc., was not successful. Suitable proof includes job advertisements in newspapers, written confirmation from employment agencies, or other kinds of documentation. Often it is helpful for authorities if the employer submits a brief overview of all candidates with a short explanation of which qualifications for a particular job were lacking. In special cases, the authorities can request an employer to intensify his recruitment efforts."

But they could just as easily go back to the old pre-FMOP system where one advert was enough. If it's in Switzerland only that may be sufficient for finding suitable candidates.
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  #1806  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:06
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I never said there was anything in the initiative on this. I merely pointed out the what may be decided is to make the process more like the one for non-EU hiring as outlined here:

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm...zulassung.html

"Moreover, the employer must explain to the authorities why the search for a suitable candidate by means of the recruitment channels used in the specific industry, such as specialist journals, employment agencies, online job listings or corporate websites, etc., was not successful. Suitable proof includes job advertisements in newspapers, written confirmation from employment agencies, or other kinds of documentation. Often it is helpful for authorities if the employer submits a brief overview of all candidates with a short explanation of which qualifications for a particular job were lacking. In special cases, the authorities can request an employer to intensify his recruitment efforts."

But they could just as easily go back to the old pre-FMOP system where one advert was enough. If it's in Switzerland only that may be sufficient for finding suitable candidates.
Was there a quota for EU employees in CH in the pre-FMOP time?
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  #1807  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I think that the SVP introduced this referendum for purely internal political reasons. I think the Bundesrat should:

1) Let someone from the SVP negotiate whatever is to be negotiated with the EU.

2) Let each canton set it's own quota for work and residence permits.
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  #1808  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:10
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Was there a quota for EU employees in CH in the pre-FMOP time?
I've a feeling they were grouped with non-EU, but there were definitely restrictions.
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  #1809  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I've a feeling they were grouped with non-EU, but there were definitely restrictions.
The only advantage was some EU passport holders got a C permit after 5 years rather than 10. To get a B permit in the first place made no difference.
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  #1810  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:13
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I also heard about this point on TV from someone from SVP in response to the question of how to implement it: if the quota is very high (say, 80,000 per year as the actual number of immigrates, or even more), then it won't change much thing, and it would be easy to implement.

But, then, my question is: what is this initiative for??? Introducing a quota system and make it non-restrictive?
Good question. See reply 1808 above
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  #1811  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

The headline for the Tagesanzeiger today mentions someone from the SVP proposing a two tier immigration system with only highly qualified immigrants being allowed to bring family members with them. Anyone read this story?
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  #1812  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:35
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The headline for the Tagesanzeiger today mentions someone from the SVP proposing a two tier immigration system with only highly qualified immigrants being allowed to bring family members with them. Anyone read this story?
This is not reasonable, no? The definition of family members that an immigrant can bring in is already quite strict: only spouses and children under 18 yo.

On the other hand, living with close family (spouse and children) is basic human right. You cannot say to someone "ok you can move and work here, but not your wife/child". If you are concerned about the quantity, then refuse some immigrants at the first place, not accepting them but refusing their wives/husbands.

And making the right to bring spouse/children in based on "qualification" is even worse. Why a foreigner cannot live with his family but another can just because the former is less qualified? Besides, how do you define "qualified"? They want to introduce a score system like Canada/Australia?
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  #1813  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:42
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The headline for the Tagesanzeiger today mentions someone from the SVP proposing a two tier immigration system with only highly qualified immigrants being allowed to bring family members with them. Anyone read this story?
This article?
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/20261476

But from the article:

Alberto Achermann, Professor für Migrationsrecht an der Uni Bern, gibt dem von der SVP vorgeschlagenen Regime rechtlich wenig Chancen. Den Familiennachzug einzuschränken, sei möglich, aber nur wenn die Einschränkung für alle gelte, also auch für Spitzenarbeitskräfte. «Sonst wäre sie diskriminierend. Eine Klage beim Bundesgericht oder Europäischen Gerichtshof für Menschenrechte hätte gute Erfolgsaussichten.

Roughly:

Alberto Achermann, professor for immigration law at University of Bern, gives the SVP suggestion little chance. Limiting family reunion is possible, but only when the limits apply to all, even the highly qualified. Otherwise it would be discriminatory. A complaint to the Federal Court or the European Court of Human Rights would have a good chance of success.

---

But bottom line - how many of you would consider taking, or even keeping, your job here if you had to leave your families behind? I suspect very few of the ‘highly qualified’ would consider it, given opportunities for their skills elsewhere.
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  #1814  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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This is not reasonable, no? The definition of family members that an immigrant can bring in is already quite strict: only spouses and children under 18 yo.
really? I read in the Zuger Zeitung that EU immigrants can also bring their parents
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  #1815  
Old 12.02.2014, 14:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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really? I read in the Zuger Zeitung that EU immigrants can also bring their parents
OK. After some search I found I was wrong. It includes also parents/grandparents who are dependent on you.
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  #1816  
Old 12.02.2014, 15:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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The problem with your analysis, however, is that you identified fear as the primary motivator for people to vote yes, without taking part in or being able to really follow the national debate. If you did follow the discussions and arguments within Switzerland prior to the vote you would have been surprised how unemotional and factual the discussion has been, a fact that several political scientists and observers have noted.

It's not fear of foreigners that motivated people to vote yes, quite the opposite because, unlike with previous immigrant waves it is very widely accepted that the current immigrants are both well-educated and relatively easily integrated.

It's the quantity, not the quality of immigration that people are unhappy about, and that's what helped the SVP garner votes far outside their own political influence. Sure, there are certainly voices within the SVP that cast doubts on the quality of foreigners as well, but if that would have been the main argument rather than the overpopulation theme, it would have been rejected by voters.
I agree that I've not had the time to follow the debate, but I was referring to the poster campaign which was definitely using fear as a motivator. And, even if the discussion is rational and factual, fear of overpopulation is still fear and it is a very powerful motivator, especially at the ballot box. As the old saying goes, "The more things change, the more they remain the same."
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  #1817  
Old 12.02.2014, 15:00
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Another example of "hysterical / rabid journalism" -

http://www.spiegel.de/karriere/ausla...-a-952977.html


Am I really living in 2014?
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  #1818  
Old 12.02.2014, 15:12
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I just saw the new status on facebook of a friend of mine (Swiss of course). Literally in English it is:

I understand why so many people come to our home to look for jobs. This is not their fault. It is the fault of the leaders of EU countries. They are not able to recover their countries from the crisis and that's why so many of their people are fleeing to our home. Now a part of us want to put our pants back on and no longer want to be f**ked by EU...
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  #1819  
Old 12.02.2014, 15:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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how many of you would consider taking, or even keeping, your job here if you had to leave your families behind? I suspect very few of the ‘highly qualified’ would consider it, given opportunities for their skills elsewhere.
When I moved here, that's how it worked.

Tom
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  #1820  
Old 12.02.2014, 15:16
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I just saw the new status on facebook of a friend of mine (Swiss of course). Literally in English it is:

I understand why so many people come to our home to look for jobs. This is not their fault. It is the fault of the leaders of EU countries. They are not able to recover their countries from the crisis and that's why so many of their people are fleeing to our home. Now a part of us want to put our pants back on and no longer want to be f**ked by EU...
Unfriend is only two clicks away.
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