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  #1821  
Old 12.02.2014, 16:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So there I was, sitting on the train, and a couple of seats away a big fellow, clearly not an Eidgenosse type, was talking VERY VERY LOUDLY on this mobile phone in a mixture of heavily accented French, English and something else.

"Harrumph," I thought. "It's selfish feckers like you that encouraged 60% of the voters in this canton to vote for the recent initiative. You bastard."

Then he got off, to be replaced by a clearly locally-born-and-bred kind of fellow (they're not hard to recognise round here) who proceeded to also talk VERY VERY LOUDLY on his mobile phone... to his grandma.

There's a lesson there, but I'm buggered if I know what it is.

Still, it's as intelligent a contribution to this discussion as anything else in this thread...
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  #1822  
Old 12.02.2014, 16:39
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So there I was, sitting on the train, and a couple of seats away a big fellow, clearly not an Eidgenosse type, was talking VERY VERY LOUDLY on this mobile phone in a mixture of heavily accented French, English and something else.

"Harrumph," I thought. "It's selfish feckers like you that encouraged 60% of the voters in this canton to vote for the recent initiative. You bastard."

Then he got off, to be replaced by a clearly locally-born-and-bred kind of fellow (they're not hard to recognise round here) who proceeded to also talk VERY VERY LOUDLY on his mobile phone... to his grandma.

There's a lesson there, but I'm buggered if I know what it is.

Still, it's as intelligent a contribution to this discussion as anything else in this thread...
Mind you, this was a train in GLARUS nicht wahr?
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  #1823  
Old 12.02.2014, 16:41
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Mind you, this was a train in GLARUS nicht wahr?
Indeed it was. The Michel Delving Express.
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  #1824  
Old 12.02.2014, 16:45
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Indeed it was. The Michel Delving Express.
A dwarf murderer?
I am not a Tolkien man myself. Prefer Niccolò's musings..
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  #1825  
Old 12.02.2014, 16:50
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Everyone is being so nice to one another in the office this week like never before. The office is full of locals and foreigners. It's a positive sign of post-referendum tolerance and understanding. I take it as a sign of apology for the f..k up of the outcome.

This much I can stay on topic.
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  #1826  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So now the SVP want that foreigners working here with high positions can bring their families with them and all others not.!Scheiss SVP! What an insult to the intelligence is SVP
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  #1827  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:18
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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So now the SVP want that foreigners working here with high positions can bring their families with them and all others not.!Scheiss SVP!
This is clearly discriminatory and absurd, and I doubt that SVP can propose something at this level.
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  #1828  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Well they have proposed this!
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This is clearly discriminatory and absurd, and I doubt that SVP can propose something at this level.
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  #1829  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:20
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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This is clearly discriminatory and absurd, and I doubt that SVP can propose something at this level.
At some point in the future, the 9th of February will be christened ShootFoot day in Switzerland. Well, maybe just east Switzerland.
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  #1830  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

http://www.nzz.ch/wirtschaft/newstic...zug-1.18241095
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  #1831  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:24
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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Well they have proposed this!
What is the details they proposed? Who can bring and who cannot? What is the qualification? Salary? Education?

So a foreigner can live with his wife and another one cannot, because the former earns a monthly salary of 10k instead of 20k? because he has college education while the other one has master degree?
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  #1832  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:25
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Yes you hit it!
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/20261476
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What is the details they proposed? Who can bring and who cannot? What is the qualification? Salary? Education?

So a foreigner can live with his wife and another one cannot, because the former earns a monthly salary of 10k instead of 20k? because he has college education while the other one has master degree?
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  #1833  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:33
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

I read that there would be far more short term permits issued, that don't include family members. So it's not a long stretch of the imagination who would be affected.
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  #1834  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:34
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

It's more likely a positive sign of nervousness?
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Everyone is being so nice to one another in the office this week like never before. The office is full of locals and foreigners. It's a positive sign of post-referendum tolerance and understanding. I take it as a sign of apology for the f..k up of the outcome.

This much I can stay on topic.
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  #1835  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:37
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Ticino says ‘basta!’ to cross-border workers

"No other canton voted as overwhelmingly as Ticino to curb the number of EU immigrants coming into Switzerland. “Stolen” jobs, lower wages and clogged roads are some of the reasons – not to mention the feeling of being ignored by Bern."

Seems that I already mentioned all that.

Tom

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  #1836  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:40
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

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I'd like to discuss the topic of trade dependencies a little bit as it's an interesting topic which I believe is widely misunderstood.

First of all the nature of trade between the EU and Switzerland: (all official figures, my comments in [brackets]

2012:
- exports CH-EU 104,564 mio Euros (rank 4 for EU)
4% agricultural products, 96% industrial products, thereof
30% chemicals, 23% precious metals and products [jewelry and watches], 15% machinery and appliances, 10% optical and photographic instruments etc...

- imports CH-EU 133,288 mio Euros (rank 3 for EU) 5% agricultural products, 95% industrial products, thereof 18% precious metals and products, 17% chemicals, 15% machinery etc...

Now what does that mean?
First of all it's clear that consumer products (B2C) are but a small part of CH-EU trade, all the rest is intra-industry trade (B2B), which aren't subject to as many EU regulations as consumer goods.

The second point is the nature of that trade, as we can see Switzerland exports the same product types it imports from the EU, the reason is simple: companies on both sides of the border (Baden-Württemberg is Switzerland's largest trading partner by a wide margin) are incredibly interconnected, they buy raw material and semi-manufactured goods to produce a highly specialized machine, part or tool which is then further used in industrial processes across the border.

Do you really think Germany will endanger the vital supply of machinery, tools and manufactured goods to their exporting industry?

And besides, Switzerland has had a trade deficit with the EU for well over a decade, which has actually widened. The same reason applies here, Switzerland buys semi-manufactured goods and raw material from the EU to then export it internationally, especially to Asia and the US. Agriculture isn't nearly as important as some might think. Germany and Switzerland are economic powerhouses and export leaders because of all these tightly interconnected and highly specialised companies in the South of Germany and (mostly but not only) the North of Switzerland.

In conclusion it's somewhat silly to suggest that the EU can simply stop buying Swiss goods to punish them for misbehaving. Barroso might want to try such a thing, but then again he threatens to do all sorts of things Merkel inevitably won't let him do. Switzerland is an incredibly good customer of EU goods, threatening to change that is not very wise.
but to fully understand the statistics, you need to first understand the assumptions, e.g. the rules of origin used to determine what constitutes an "import" and an "export", right? for the typical multinational in an industrial secor such as chemicals, for example, the "finishing" or "value-added processing" that is done in Switzerland is often no different from what could be done in other tax-friendly jurisdictions such as those found in the Benelux, were the reasons for it being done in Switzerland (the choice of Switzerland long predates the formation of the EU and the introduction of Benelux countries as tax-friendly options, Swiss corporate law is much more favorable than corporate law in most EU jurisdictions, it is 50 times easier to fire employees in Switzerland, it is much easier to recruit expats to live in Switzerland, etc.) to materially change.

all of which is completely distinct from the question of whether or not the current structures are a positive for the typical Swiss citizen, but that's a different question altogether.
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  #1837  
Old 12.02.2014, 17:54
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Well Mr B you asked for it!
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  #1838  
Old 12.02.2014, 18:14
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

After the self slap facebook here is "the other half" website.
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  #1839  
Old 12.02.2014, 18:23
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

So they want a kind of two class system which distinguishes skilled workers and unskilled workers.
The first problem is how to define these two classes? They seem to propose many criteria: salary, domain (construction, agriculture, catering…), length of work (permanent vs. seasonal)…

Personally, The SVP proposals seem like child story-telling. “We are scared of too many people, so there need to be a quota”. But how this can be implemented? How the quotas should be divided into different months, different cantons, different industry domains and different employers?

Currently, Switzerland already has a very complex quota system for non-EU. We have 3500 B permits and 5000 L permits for non-EU every year. Half is reserved for federation, and the other half is unevenly divided (in some unknown way) to different cantons. Each canton first uses its own quota, and if it is not enough (for example in GE the cantonal quota was never enough) they borrow from the federal quota. Apart from this we also have to deal with many practical issues. One example is the worker working and living in different cantons (you cannot prohibit someone to move to another canton with a valid reason, but the permits are canton specific and has a quota, so how do you count it?)… In one word, the non-EU system is already super complex. Nevertheless, the overall quota (3500+5000) has been very rarely reached, because of the strict constraint for hiring non-EU (need to prove that no one inside EU can be found).

Now comes to EU, how do we implement the quota? Borrow the system for non-EU? Then you either make the quota very high (in this case what the initiative is for? Create a quota which is never effective?), either you will have to face the decision when the quota is nearly full. Who do you give the last permit? A farmer in Appenzell, a construction worker in Bern, a banker in UBS Zurich, a manager at Nestle Vevey, or a researcher in EPFL Lausanne?? In addition, who makes this decision? Canton? Federation? In which standard? This is much more complex than the non-EU case as this situation will happen far more often than the non-EU quota, and that the decision has a much bigger impact on the economy. If EPFL gets permit refused for a non-EU researcher they really want, they still have a large EU market to search for another maybe-only-slightly-worse candidate, but if it got refused for an EU researcher, what can they do? Hiring someone from La Poste? (Last year we were searching for a researcher, only 1 from 20 CVs was from CH and this guy was a mailman at La Poste. No one knows why he applied. No offense.)

Now they are scared that too many family members will exploit Switzerland, so they start again their story telling: to restrict family reunion based on some “qualification”, only “good” immigrants are allowed to bring their family. This solution is too easy to come up, even for a child. The big question is the same: how do you implement? They mentioned various criteria: salary, domain, contract length… The two-tier EU/Non-EU system, addition with this system of skilled workers/non-skilled workers, all these vague standards… What I see is just a combination of mess. Switzerland is not like Canada/Australia. They distinguish immigrants they need by an objective scoring system and their system has developed for so many years. Unless Switzerland changes fundamentally the immigration policy and introduce a similar objective system I do not see any of the proposals as applicable.

But SVP said: we just want a quota, nothing else, and this is easy to implement!
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  #1840  
Old 12.02.2014, 18:31
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Re: Masseneinwanderung Stoppen [initiative to limit immigration]

Some calming words from President Didier Burkhalter-

"The political right and left have traded accusations with the People’s Party strongman Christoph Blocher implying that a majority of voters in the French-speaking part of the country are unpatriotic because the rejected the initiative, while the left asked for immigration quotas to be applied more strictly in regions where a majority came out in favour.

Seeking to assure EU foreigners living in Switzerland and Swiss expats living in EU member countries, Burkhalter said the status quo would prevail for the next three years.

“There won’t be any immediate changes. Those who have benefited from the free movement accord would not lose their current status even if the agreement were cancelled,” he said."

For the rest of the article-

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...l?cid=37944646
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