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  #241  
Old 13.02.2014, 20:54
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Ticino border is an idea... the people has spoken.
That is still within the confines of CH.
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  #242  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:01
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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How long does one of them take to fly across CH?
practice training will be a bit of a problem if the EU bans them from flying over borders
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  #243  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:08
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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That is still within the confines of CH.
Come on, SVP men have cojones, hunt them down in every toilet if needed. Who is more man, Blocher or Putin?
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  #244  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:11
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

You have to feel for the pilots, all that intensive training for them not to ever use it in which I have no doubt they are itching to do.
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  #245  
Old 13.02.2014, 21:28
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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practice training will be a bit of a problem if the EU bans them from flying over borders
Here some data about the F-18

The F/A-18 has a top speed of Mach 1.8 (1,190 mph or 1,915 km/h at 40,000 ft or 12,190 m).

Here the Saab Gripen ? Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,204 km/h, 1,372 mph) at high altitude

and here the


Flight distance from Geneva to Altenrhein
297 kilometers / 184 miles
or 160 nautical miles.

297 : 1915 = a quarter hour in case of both

This is why the Swiss Air Force already in the past leased territory in Canada and Greenland and elseswhere

BUT fighter planes are not permanently operating at maximum speed which means that a good part of the training can well be done here.





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  #246  
Old 15.02.2014, 17:31
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Here some data about the F-18

The F/A-18 has a top speed of Mach 1.8 (1,190 mph or 1,915 km/h at 40,000 ft or 12,190 m).

Here the Saab Gripen ? Maximum speed: Mach 2 (2,204 km/h, 1,372 mph) at high altitude

and here the


Flight distance from Geneva to Altenrhein
297 kilometers / 184 miles
or 160 nautical miles.

297 : 1915 = a quarter hour in case of both

This is why the Swiss Air Force already in the past leased territory in Canada and Greenland and elseswhere

BUT fighter planes are not permanently operating at maximum speed which means that a good part of the training can well be done here.




It seems to me like having a lift in house with only the ground floor. I mean no offense, but you could buy drones or you could use the same money towards ETH developing drones for the purpose of defending the aerial space of Switzerland, this would also have civilian applications as it happens for DARPA in USA.

Planes with little man inside to shoot other little man in a plane is not that far away from a caveman with a very technological club hitting another caveman with a very technological club.

Switzerland has to be prepared for war? Good, let's spend the money in the most intelligent way.

The guy there from UDC that is promoting this, I have seen this in the countless (3) countries where I have lived before: he has to make some friends happy.

Defence is necessary. Spending money on useless tools no.
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  #247  
Old 15.02.2014, 18:32
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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It seems to me like having a lift in house with only the ground floor. I mean no offense, but you could buy drones or you could use the same money towards ETH developing drones for the purpose of defending the aerial space of Switzerland, this would also have civilian applications as it happens for DARPA in USA.

Planes with little man inside to shoot other little man in a plane is not that far away from a caveman with a very technological club hitting another caveman with a very technological club.

Switzerland has to be prepared for war? Good, let's spend the money in the most intelligent way.

The guy there from UDC that is promoting this, I have seen this in the countless (3) countries where I have lived before: he has to make some friends happy.

Defence is necessary. Spending money on useless tools no.
$

Useless defence is NOT necessary. Drones are toys. Your vote clearly means that the armed forces here should be given up. You have lived ?? in houses without a roof ? No forget it, either armed forces which make a bit of sense or rather NONE
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  #248  
Old 15.02.2014, 18:39
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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$

Useless defence is NOT necessary. Drones are toys. Your vote clearly means that the armed forces here should be given up. You have lived ?? in houses without a roof ? No forget it, either armed forces which make a bit of sense or rather NONE

USA uses them a lot, there was also a debate some time ago on whether to just use drones or not.

I think USA are quite an authority in terms of weapons for defense.

You could also differentiate, like for example spend some of this money military research and some of the money on standard technology.

3 Bilions CHF on one single tool, to me, seems a bit of a risky investment.
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  #249  
Old 15.02.2014, 22:30
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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USA uses them a lot, there was also a debate some time ago on whether to just use drones or not.

I think USA are quite an authority in terms of weapons for defense.

You could also differentiate, like for example spend some of this money military research and some of the money on standard technology.

3 Bilions CHF on one single tool, to me, seems a bit of a risky investment.
The USA uses drones and other gadgets BESIDE one of the largest airforces in the world. NO NO NO the USA is NOT an authority in terms of defence of small countries. Even when saving money, the USA has resources which are 50 times the ones of Switzerland. Military research in Switzerland was, since the 1950ies, gradually reduced to almost ZERO. *On ONE single tool" is wrong, as the Swiss armed forces consist of various forces, including artillery, Mineur-Truppen, a tank force etc The whole endeavour however is rubbish without an aircover by the airforce

And here the questions begin. Henri Guisan correctly based his planning on a three levels system. Border-troops trying to prevent people invading but retreating from major confrontations, territorial troops attacking any invader, possibly from behind (including the Mineur-Truppen whose job was and would be to cut the traffic-ways at specified moments) and finally the troops hidden in the background. A major difference to then of course is that the space available then is no longer around and that a lot of the things possible then no longer are possible.

To me it was and is clear that F-18 like air superiority fighters are not the way to go for Switzerland, but multi-role airplanes like the Gripen and the Rafale ARE.

As long as I have a fealing that the people by majority supports the armed forces I will support the force as well. But should I see the basis of support melting away I may switch to support the SOA idea (SOA = Switzerland WITHOUT ARMY).

Back to Henri Guisan. The man in WW ONE was a military observer on the German Eastern Front and so had good contacts with members of the German Military Staff. He during WW TWO frequently met the chaps. He knew that he could persevere as long as the morale was up and he had the support of the people. Had the morale and the support collapsed the Germans would have invaded CH within three days and all his tricks would not have changed much.

Switzerland did and does not have a vast area to get back, and the "Réduit" as a piece of psychological warfare. For comparison, look at highways in the USA , many of them still owned by the army which would have allowed do allow and will allow the USA to take back whole armies

No no no, I do NOT believe in armed forces consisting of motivated boy-scouts and prestige-hungry scientists. So either armed forces including an airforce and an artillery-force or none. What ought to be reduced to 10% of course is the infantry, as Switzerland has no basis for a China-like mass-army

Rather let's hand over forces and equipment of the tank-force and the artillery to the Cantonal police forces. Nobody wants to mess with 26 unpredictable bus heaviily and well equipped armed forces

Last edited by Wollishofener; 17.02.2014 at 23:00.
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  #250  
Old 16.02.2014, 04:10
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The USA uses drones and other gadgets BESIDE one of the largest airforces in the world. NO NO NO the USA is NOT an authority in terms of defence of small countries. Even when saving money, the USA has resources which are 50 times the ones of Switzerland. Military research in Switzerland was, since the 1950ies, gradually reduced to almost ZERO. *On ONE single tool" is wrong, as the Swiss armed forces consist of various forces, including artillery, Mineur-Truppen, a tank force etc The whole endeavour however is rubbish without an aircover by the airforce

And here the questions begin. Henri Guisan correctly based his planning on a three levels system. Border-troops trying to prevent people invading but retreating from major confrontations, territorial troops attacking any invader, possibly from behind (including the Mineur-Truppen whose job was and would be to cut the traffic-ways at specified moments) and finally the troops hidden in the background. A major difference to then of course is that the space available then is no longer around and that a lot of the things possible then no longer are possible.

To me it was and is clear that F-18 like air superiority fighters are not the way to go for Switzerland, but multi-role airplanes like the Gripen and the Rafale ARE.

As long as I have a fealing that the people by majority supports the armed forces I will support the force as well. But should I see the basis of support melting away I may switch to support the SOA idea (SOA = Switzerland WITHOUT ARMY).

Back to Henri Guisan. The man in WW ONE was a military observer on the German Eastern Front and so had good contacts with members of the German Military Staff. He during WW TWO frequently met the chaps. He knew that he could persevere as long as the morale was up and he had the support of the people. Had the morale and the support collapsed the Germans would have invaded CH within three days and all his tricks would not have changed much.

Switzerland did and does not have a vast area to get back, and the "Réduit" as a piece of psychological warfare. For comparison, look at highways in the USA , many of them still owned by the army which would have allowed do allow and will allow the USA to take back whole armies

No no no, I do NOT believe in armed forces consisting of motivated boy-scouts and prestige-hungry scientists. So either armed forces including an airforce and an artillery-force or none. What ought to be reduced to 10% of course is the infantry, as Switzerland has no basis for a China-like mass-army

Rather let's hand over forces and equipment of the tank-force and the artillery to the Cantonal police forces. Nobody wants to mess with 26 unpredictable bus heaily and well equipped armed forces
I do not understand this 0 or all concept. I think a healthy differentiation is going to be more productive both from the civilian and the military perspective.

Evidence suggests that interaction between military and scientists has been productive in the past more or less all around the world, I also do not understand what the issue would be in having highly trained military forces, that given a situation can react.

I imagine a military should be able to deal with situations where there is no technology available and situations where there is plenty too.

Prestige hungry scientists can be an issue. Or not. At the end of the day it is the military that would decide for the specifics.

Altogether, my main criticism towards the Grippen is that they cost a lot of money and they are likely, due to landscape conformation, to be largely ineffective. Having some may still make some sense in an unlikely large scale scenario. Given the low likelihood of such a scenario though, I would still buy some Grippen, but reserve part of the money for more military training .... and eventually for anti-aviation artillery (whatever this may be: drones, or turrets or I do not know).

My 2 cents.

Last edited by SteAlka; 16.02.2014 at 04:29.
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  #251  
Old 17.02.2014, 19:56
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Did someone already post this link?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...r-after-5.html
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  #252  
Old 17.02.2014, 20:39
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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I do not understand this 0 or all concept. I think a healthy differentiation is going to be more productive both from the civilian and the military perspective.

...

Altogether, my main criticism towards the Grippen is that they cost a lot of money and they are likely, due to landscape conformation, to be largely ineffective. Having some may still make some sense in an unlikely large scale scenario. Given the low likelihood of such a scenario though, I would still buy some Grippen, but reserve part of the money for more military training .... and eventually for anti-aviation artillery (whatever this may be: drones, or turrets or I do not know).

My 2 cents.

I completly agree that we have to differentiate and not to aim for the best army or none at all. In the end maybe our main task in the military is to pass on our knowledge to the next generation, while adapting it to the rise of new technologies. As someone stated: you can tear down an army in heartbeat, but need years to build it up.
But maintaining a COMPLETE defense force is financially impossible. You have to cut the edges somewhere (for example no 24/7 coverage). It therefore surprises me, that they want to regain the (quite recently) dropped knowledge in air to ground again.

Most people come from one of two extreme scenarios when considering to side with GsoA: 1. mankind has finally learned to peasefully live together. 2. we would not be able to defend against the US nukes anyway.
You see, a full scale attack is a delicate thing, and what I've been told that only the US and Israel have all the means necessary to attack. Germany (or France, Italy...) has some tools and some knowlege, but important links to let them all play out successfully are missing.
They do not need it, being in the NATO they can complement each other.
So, in times of widespread peace, I think it's understandable that we do the same and cut some more edges in order to use our recources on "hospiatals and streets".
All this while keepting the most crucial tools and those that are the most difficult to build up again.
And airplaines (still) belong to these crucial tools.

Tell me, how do you want to cover an airplaines capability otherwise?
Drones: As Assassin said, they are not there yet. you dont have airfight capabilities, you don't have the possibility to idendify and react in sufficient forms neighter. Furthermore, any drone as of today only flies when there is air superiority established already.
Ground to air: had been abandoned with the fall of the iron curtain (the bloodhound rockets had a 200km range)
By today Rapier, Stinger and M-Flab only reach as far as 4000m!
But even if we'd invest in Aster or Patriot, as it had been mentioned, this would be only for "shoot to kill".
Helicopters: vulnerable and slow, while afaik for air to ground only.

Bottom line, we need something up there with a little more agility. We need eyes, we need a mind and we need a "phone" and we need a gun.

Because we still need to be able to cover every thinkable and unthinkable threat.

Every WEF we have a couple of incidents where airplaines penetrated the no-flight-zone of davos
How would you get them to ground with the M-flab? Well there is one way but I don't think the public would approve.
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  #253  
Old 17.02.2014, 20:52
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Now this is an army penknife...



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You misunderstand. These knifes NEVER were weapons but tools. They have seen action in many places, from woods to wine cellars to private meeting places and so on and so forth

You see, you have to take such a knife with you in your check-in luggage. But once,. Swiss people, diplomats, businessmen and tourists alike, have arrived at destination. their first thing after arrival is to take the knife out of the suitcase and take it into their pockets in order no longer to be naked.

THIS is the function
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  #254  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:03
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Did someone already post this link?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...r-after-5.html
Eh...

oh..

traditions are traditions... polite invaders will understand.
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  #255  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:19
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

The pilots have to share the fighter jet with their neighbours. And it isn't allowed to fly the jet between the hours of 10pm and 7am - Nachtruhe rules.

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Did someone already post this link?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...r-after-5.html
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  #256  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:20
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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I do not understand this 0 or all concept. I think a healthy differentiation is going to be more productive both from the civilian and the military perspective.

Evidence suggests that interaction between military and scientists has been productive in the past more or less all around the world, I also do not understand what the issue would be in having highly trained military forces, that given a situation can react.

I imagine a military should be able to deal with situations where there is no technology available and situations where there is plenty too.

Prestige hungry scientists can be an issue. Or not. At the end of the day it is the military that would decide for the specifics.

Altogether, my main criticism towards the Grippen is that they cost a lot of money and they are likely, due to landscape conformation, to be largely ineffective. Having some may still make some sense in an unlikely large scale scenario. Given the low likelihood of such a scenario though, I would still buy some Grippen, but reserve part of the money for more military training .... and eventually for anti-aviation artillery (whatever this may be: drones, or turrets or I do not know).

My 2 cents.
> Switzerland HAS highly trained military forces
> the armed forces cannot decide about stuff they do not have
> the Saab Gripen is NOT expensive but relatively cheap. And are effective, exactly due to the landscape, for which generations of Swiss Airforce pilots were and are trained
> more military training is not possible as the WK-troops (WK = repetition courses) each year after three weeks will get home. The Swiss armed forces is not a professional force but a militia army with civilians doing military service, in the main time between 22 and 32 for between 3 weeks and 3 weeks and a half. An optimal training would need between 6 and 10 weeks, and this is absolutely impossible
> the anti-aircraft artillery is quite considerable here, well trained and well equipped
--
All this is why I favour a much smaller but professional army. But again, armed forces are as strong as the combination of the various sectors. If the idea is to scrap parts due to costs, we better cancel the whole useless exercise
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  #257  
Old 17.02.2014, 23:49
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Did someone already post this link?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...r-after-5.html
Bloomberg may need maps. Suggest we start collecting donations. I have a bank account. There for sure were NO Italian fighter jets involved, as Savoy was ceded to France more than 120 years ago. And any air operations into and out of Geneva Cointrin leads over French territory, so that the military airspace around Geneva is clearly in the hands of the French Air Force. Just as is the case about Basel-Mulhouse-Airport.

As you can see here

http://www.lw.admin.ch/internet/luft...dflyer2012.pdf

the air-surveillance of the Air Force goes on around the clock
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Old 17.02.2014, 23:52
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Eh...

oh..

traditions are traditions... polite invaders will understand.
And not so polite ones will be confronted even deep at night unless they invade French (Geneva) or Italian (Lugano Agno) airspace

The major landing approach for Geneva Cointrin goes accross Evian, and the major departure air-lane gets out over French territory again.

That Ethiopian Airlines co-pilot realized very well that Geneva was ideal for him. Had he chosen Zürich, it would have been Swiss Air Force and Cantonal Police of Zürich, had he chosen Basel it would have been the French Air Force AND the French Gendarmerie. In Geneva it was the French Air Force in the air but the Geneva Cantonal Police on the ground.

CORRECTION: In spite of what they have on their WEBsite, the Swiss Air Force is NO LONGER to operate outside business hours, unless in case of a real emergency.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 18.02.2014 at 13:26.
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Old 18.02.2014, 19:34
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Says it all- in French with strong Swiss German accent, LOL... with a bit Gerlish thrown in (hmm)

http://dai.ly/x1cjy1j
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  #260  
Old 18.02.2014, 19:51
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Says it all- in French with strong Swiss German accent, LOL... with a bit Gerlish thrown in (hmm) http://dai.ly/x1cjy1j
How did he keep a straight face? Brilliant!
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