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  #81  
Old 03.10.2011, 15:38
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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if ever western europe and our ideological allies encounter a real threat, they know we will be there to stand up for them.
Like in Cyprus, you mean?
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Old 03.10.2011, 15:42
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Useless fact of the day #64

The Gripen and Typhoon (please use the service name Assassin - pay attention) use the same hydraulics on their landing gear flaps.
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  #83  
Old 03.10.2011, 15:44
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

It takes seconds to tear down an army, but years to build it back up again. Then it would be too late.

The jets are not the only key decision factor: no jets means no pilots. If we don't order more jets and retire the ones we have, we will stop recruiting pilots. Then in the future, if we want jets again, where will all the pilots be? Unborn, that's where they will be.
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  #84  
Old 03.10.2011, 15:48
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Is Switzerland expecting another war in the next decade or so?
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  #85  
Old 03.10.2011, 16:10
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Forgive me for not having read through the whole post but with the P21 has CH already not got the correct aircraft for CHian Airspace?
Jets are just Swish kabooms that stroke the weapons grade testosterone of the military mind
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  #86  
Old 03.10.2011, 16:24
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Forgive me for not having read through the whole post but with the P21 has CH already not got the correct aircraft for CHian Airspace?
Jets are just Swish kabooms that stroke the weapons grade testosterone of the military mind
Nope, the P21 is just an advanced turboprop trainer with cockpits simulating jet fighters so as to save money on training in the "real thing". They have no intended offensive rôle, but you can retrofit anything onto anything if you're useful with a toolkit. Remember the hassle when Chad dropped bombs from a PC7?
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Old 03.10.2011, 16:43
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Nope, the P21 is just an advanced turboprop trainer with cockpits simulating jet fighters so as to save money on training in the "real thing". They have no intended offensive rôle, but you can retrofit anything onto anything if you're useful with a toolkit. Remember the hassle when Chad dropped bombs from a PC7?
Sort of like "Scrapheap Challenge - The Advanced Edition"??

Are you sure you haven't spent the weekend watching your collection of James Bond movies and wishing you could be the next Q?
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Old 03.10.2011, 17:05
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Useless fact of the day #64

The Gripen and Typhoon (please use the service name Assassin - pay attention) use the same hydraulics on their landing gear flaps.
Typhoon is sooo, well, English. Do you zink ze Germanz refer to zere "Taifuns"? No, I didn't think so, they call them "Eufis".
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Old 03.10.2011, 17:37
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Typhoon is sooo, well, English. Do you zink ze Germanz refer to zere "Taifuns"? No, I didn't think so, they call them "Eufis".
Eurofighter - 4 syllables - a bit complicated for the Air Forces of Europe. They can manage 2 syllables - at a push. At least the RAF were able to give the metal bird a good name with 2 syllables - the Luftwaffe failed to manage that.

Naming in something is almost important as how effective it is!!

If you go into combat flying the ZT-32 "Flying Fieldmouse" - you're not going to feel so confident up against the F27 "Super Lightning Raptor Killer" now are you?
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Old 03.10.2011, 17:37
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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the conclusion was that there wasn't really a need for new planes. they can keep the existing ones to do a spot of flying around for fun, taking a gander over switzerland, and maybe doing the odd interception of hijacked civilian aircraft.

regarding actual air-to-air combat, switzerland would not have enough to make a difference between not having any airforce, except for the marginal deterrent value, which they have without buying new aircraft.
What you write even more is the case in regard to the other sections of the army here. The basic idea of the whole club just IS the deterrant. While the anti-army folks regard that "deterrant-value" of the whole club as near to zero the Militarists are completely convinced about the superb deterrant-value. Whatever, armed forces without an air force are rubbish.
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Old 03.10.2011, 17:49
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...last-ace/7291/

an interesting article on the benefits of air superiority.

also dealing with the same situation faced by the US - how to upgrade the aging fleet of F-15s
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  #92  
Old 03.10.2011, 18:13
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Nope, the P21 is just an advanced turboprop trainer with cockpits simulating jet fighters so as to save money on training in the "real thing". They have no intended offensive rôle, but you can retrofit anything onto anything if you're useful with a toolkit. Remember the hassle when Chad dropped bombs from a PC7?
True, thing is with SAM cover at saturation level your expensive raptor thundertrinket will be a collectirs piece littering the countryside.
Also from what i gather the P21 can use different missile systems
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  #93  
Old 03.10.2011, 18:26
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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True, thing is with SAM cover at saturation level your expensive raptor thundertrinket will be a collectirs piece littering the countryside.
Also from what i gather the P21 can use different missile systems
Sorry, you gathered incorrectly. The P21 cannot use any missile system, I'm sure that you can set up the MFD software to simulate or emulate external missile threats for flight training purposes, but there is no way to hang a missile onto this airplane. Unguided rockets possibly, but that's not the idea.
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  #94  
Old 03.10.2011, 20:25
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

The PC-21 couldn't keep up with an airliner, let alone a cruise missile.

The reason noise levels on takeoff / landing is taken into account is due to yet another useless "preserve the landscape" ballot initiative, this time asking for extremely limited use of jets in "tourist areas". Typical stuff from Green Ayatolah Franz Carl Weber and his acolytes, it never defined what areas where tourist ones or not, and was basically another attempt to shut down some part of the military. It didn't go through but did provoke quite a lot of nimbyism debate in the population. One high placed staff officer even admitted that shutting down Regensdorf had been a mistake compared to keeping Meiringen. The noise levels wouldn't be so bad if they took off with full military power or even 90% power instead of full afterburner, which they used to do and then had a near accident. Since then on safety reasons they have to use afterburner.

The Raptor is specifically designed to operate with ease in saturation SAM environments btw, being stealthy.
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Old 03.10.2011, 22:57
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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THIS
An A-10 Thunderbolt II firing an AGM-65

or THIS :

Dassault Rafale B Paris Air Show 2007
Ooh, definitely this one, it's way cool:





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Suchoi Su-27
Ooh-Ooh! I've changed my mind! I want that one!

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the reason that switzerland even has the luxury of debating this matter is because the US spends billions each year on having the most advanced war machine in the world capable of projecting its power to every potential conflict zone. if ever western europe and our ideological allies encounter a real threat, they know we will be there to stand up for them.

as a citizen whose taxes contribute to your security, you are welcome in advance
So you pay US taxes AND live in Monaco?
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Old 04.10.2011, 02:09
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

Well Im no military expert, however the army needs to keep up to date just for the experience. You learn new skills, tactics etc with new technology, so just for the sake of an evolving military is very important. Because in 50-100 years time you have no idea whats gonna happen. So just stay up to date without going too far is important for future generations.
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Old 04.10.2011, 07:24
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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Like in Cyprus, you mean?
Cyprus was not in NATO, and Greece had reduced its connections to NATO by closing down NATO bases, while Turkey was and is a full NATO member, having the command of the NATO forces for the Eastern Med in Izmir and NATO airforce bases in Anatolia. Add to this that Turkey intervened on Cyprus based on its role of "guarantee-country" for the Treaty of Zurich.
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Old 04.10.2011, 08:28
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The PC-21 couldn't keep up with an airliner, let alone a cruise missile.

The reason noise levels on takeoff / landing is taken into account is due to yet another useless "preserve the landscape" ballot initiative, this time asking for extremely limited use of jets in "tourist areas". Typical stuff from Green Ayatolah Franz Carl Weber and his acolytes, it never defined what areas where tourist ones or not, and was basically another attempt to shut down some part of the military. It didn't go through but did provoke quite a lot of nimbyism debate in the population. One high placed staff officer even admitted that shutting down Regensdorf had been a mistake compared to keeping Meiringen. The noise levels wouldn't be so bad if they took off with full military power or even 90% power instead of full afterburner, which they used to do and then had a near accident. Since then on safety reasons they have to use afterburner.

The Raptor is specifically designed to operate with ease in saturation SAM environments btw, being stealthy.

Sorry, your post is riddled with errors bud.

The P21 could easily keep up with airliners in most flight envelopes, max speed is 370 knots. Check out the data sheet.

You mean keeping Dübendorf open for jets? This has nothing to do with take off method (you select reheat or no reheat based on projected aircraft performance due to wright, air pressure and temperature for a start), but rather that Dübendorf had no wartime infrastructure and its proximity to Zürich Airport is less than ideal. When the Hornets left Dübendorf a few years ago, it was a cost saving exercise. Most of the squadron 11 pilots lived in and around Zürich and they weren't thrilled about having to up their roots and move to the Bernese Oberland. I do grant you that it leaves the Air Force with zero coverage for anything east of Meiringen, but that's not as tactically important as its hyped up to be.

The use of Swiss airfields could fill up a whole other thread, so we'll save that for a rainy day.
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Old 04.10.2011, 09:35
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

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The use of Swiss airfields could fill up a whole other thread, so we'll save that for a rainy day.
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Old 04.10.2011, 09:43
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Re: Does Switzerland need new fighter jets?

In case anyone is free this afternoon (14:00 to 17:00), one of EF's members has posted this tour of the Pilatus facility at Buochs airfield:

BSCC Event: Visit to Pilatus Aircraft Ltd, Stans

If you've never visited an airplane factory before, I can heartily recommend a trip.

Buochs airfield is about a twenty minute drive south of Luzern, just off the A2 freeway. Public transport is via train to Stans and then a local bus.
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