I know i'm a bugger for writing things without a back-up but thats because i'm computer illiterate , however i read yesterday in the Tages Anzieger that it costs a 1000, francs or more to scatter your relatives under a certain tree! If that was the case in England my family would have totally polluted the canal and we'd all be in debt!

I guess Mark based on your defense of veil at every opportunity (even in unrelated topics) you would be very sympathetic towards this lady if similar thing happened in CH?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...rd/6050392.stm

Do watch her interview as well. Truely bright lady...NOT! Talk about being brainwashed!

Should we allow Female Genital Mutilation as well if it is done in muslim hospitals with muslim money? Should we have different laws for muslims while we are at it?

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK

These are they type of issues that worry the Swiss.

Bambi - I'm not going to respond to you. I've told you many times, both in public and in private to stop with this kind of thing. You raise hypothetical points which do not have any direct relevance to the points we have been discussing.

Given the "issues" you seem to have with religion, I'm hereby formally requesting you not to comment any longer on any threads involving religion on this forum. You've just done this too many times. Stay on topic, and stay within the framework of the argument.

IHMO the story has more to do with the SVP being a bunch of sad losers with no real policies, and a Blockhead in charge.

Making perceived outsiders the subject of hatred is not a new idea but politicians get away with it time and again.

Rgds,
Nick

Maybe I'm fortunate having grown up in a city with a large moslem population, Cape Town. I heard the call to prayer in the morning, I saw minarettes all over the place, I got the sweets and samoosas in the evenings during Ramadan. I don't see the problem with having minarettes as part of a Swiss city skyline. But I think it's the part of the "New World vs Old World" topic that Mark mentioned in another thread.

Why isn't it new v old world? The 'natives' of the Cape were subdued long ago and other cultures, beliefs and languages were surplanted.

Being brought up in SouthAfrican culture it is clear that you would not see a problem with a Swiss city skyline which contained minarettes. However, the 'natives' of Switzerland have lived and farmed here for 900 years and survived into the 21st century without invasion. Now feel they are being invaded, it would be very odd if they didn't resist...

Like I said, maybe I'm fortunate that I've been exposed to so many different cultures...and it's still something new for a large majority of Swiss people

When the Christian church in Abu Dhabi was built it had a tower. So the Arabs built a mosque next door with a taller minaret. Healthy competition is not a problem.

More to the point, Zurich and it's surrounds is ugly. Filled with crappy concrete and steel <expletive deleted> buildings. Swiss people removed the beauty from this city, so why would a simple finger in the sky be any worse than that?

The Swiss looooooove concrete - it's obvious that they must. That can be the only reason why there's so much of it everywhere. The problem is the "simple finger in the sky" would not be a Swiss simple finger in the sky...

I actually think I'm going to go around to the Zurich mosque and photograph the minaret and post a picture of it here, since I live nearby. When everyone sees what a small building this is and how you can hardly notice the minaret it will make the opposition to it look even more ridiculous...

If I am not mistaken - mosques don't need a minaret. It's a middle eastern convention which was taken up in Muslim the world just because it came from the birthplace of Islam.

I wish the local Muslim community would use this opportunity to build a beautiful, modern mosque - without a Minaret.

Isn't compromise the swiss way ?

Well, thats how I understand it too BUT why can't they have a minarette if they want one?? What harm will the minarette do?

As for compromise, don't you mean conform?

I think that a question like this should never arise. Nobody should compromise on these petty issues. It's same like asking whether a chruch can have a bell tower or if a temple can have a high pointed top. "Compromise" is a compromise if it is followed by every side otherwise it becomes a discrimination and becomes a cause of unnecessary and pointless debate.

The reason people object to a minaret is that it would change their traditional view. legitimate request, imho.

Minorities should play by the rules of the majority, as much as possible. Try to do it the other way and a clash is certain.

As the minaret doesn't fulfil any function - religious or other, I don't think it's a big deal.

We can not ignore the fact that Islam is seen a threat by many people - Willingness to compromise would make Islam less threatening.

Not quite. It's like asking if a Church in Saudi Arabia can have a bell tower.

Is it? How about asking them to not ring the bells so often and see how far you'll get with "compromise". Despite the fact that a federal court has rules that silence between 22:00 and 06:00 must be respected by the church bells, most communities refuse to listen to any complaints from residents on the subject. Oh but minarets - that's a serious issue right?

Let's not forget that these minarets would be silent.

Protection of the interests of minorities is the hallmark of so called free societies. I don't think anyone is trying to break any rules. Who would have thought that building a minaret onto a building they own, using their own money would break any rules. In fact - it didn't break any rules, but people decided to deny them the ability to do it anyway, and call for the ones which had already been built to be torn down (who will pay for that?)

Let me pose this question - does this "minority" pay less taxes than the majority? I was under the impression that the 8% of muslims in this country (quite a sizeable minority and they only have 4 mosques in the whole country) pay their taxes and participate in society, just like the majority does.

So what moral right do we have to impose our judgements on what they want to do their buildings?

Let's be honest here - is it because the Taliban won't let men shave or women wear makeup. Is that all we really understand of Islam? Is it because people spread complete rubbish about Islamic customs which have no basis in fact?

Or is it just because we fear what we don't understand, but we can't even admit that?

I also don't think it is right to try to justify the argument by comparing Switzerland to third-world non-democracies - surely we should be a little more enlightened and set a good example - especially since we represent ourselves all over the world as champions of human rights (domestic policies notwithstanding).

Actually - non christians pay less taxes, as non-christian beliefs don't count as official religions, thus they don't have to pay the "church tax".

Church bells were here before noise reduction laws whether we like it or not (I don't). Minarets are new.

I was referring to rules, not law - a lot of people do not want to give Zürich/Basel/Bern/wankdorf a middle eastern flair, they try to cling to (an old fashioned, romantic, false) image of "Europeaness". I guess that if Mosques would come with a Wal-Mart sign and a huge U.S flag they would object as well.

another option: Synagogues. usually they try to blend in as much as possible - as Jews in the diaspora are always a minority. Small challenge: how many synagogues did you spot in Zürich ?

Muslims are also a minority, but in many cases it tries to impose it's values on the majority - hence the clash.

"Is that all we really understand of Islam?"

Sorry there is no way you are an Atheist like you said on the other thread It's completely your business as to what you follow or believe but I have to call you out on that. Btw Taliban did lot more than what you mentioned. Is it possible that you yourself don't know much about Islamic customs and FACTS? Only for your information incase you think I am like the 40-50% of Americans who buy any lie...I have read Quran from start to end and also all the Hadiths.

Swiss fear of Islam is not unjustified like you are making it out to be. Yes church bells can be irritating so why not campaign more for it to be stopped rather than add more religious things? Mark you are looking at the minaret argument as one single issue on it's own...in a vacum. Real life does not work like that.

Btw if you decrease the ignorance amongst the Swiss about Islam by telling them more about the teachings of Islam and it's history then the opposition to the mosque will increase not decrease

P.S- I ticked don't care not because I don't care but because the other options were too narrow. I might hate religion but I am still open to compromise within reason.

Bullseye. The above applies to Christianity as well but the degree is much higher with Islam. The western society in general have put it's lunatics in place but the Islamic world has not. I stole that from Bill Mahers video clip..guy speaks it straight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gptseknzOdk


Exactly. That is another thing that no churches or any other religious building are allowed there. The argument that Islam in country X has no connenction with Islam in country Y does have some merit but that gets neutralized by the "UMMA" factor which is supposed to have no regard for national boundaries and strongly longs for the creation of a global Khalifa.

Straight from the mouth of third world workers who work in SA-->The immigration/custom officers at the airport quiet regularly rip non Islamic religious books and images and throw them in bin in front of them without any hesitation. Who hands out money for mosques to be built globally? Saudi Arabia! Who encourages very extreme intolerant wahhabi brand of Islam? Saudi Arabia.

Edit- All said and done there are deep divisions within Islam as well. So I definitely see merit in supporting the reasonable and moderate sections of Islam. On the other hand I also believe that in all religions (even more in Islam) the religious moderates directly or indirectly act as the pipes into which the sewer of religious extremists flows. I give up on the world as it's a total mess! I really want OUT!

This requires further clarification. Muslims DO pay the same taxes as Christians. What I was referring to here was the main taxes. Additional taxes paid to the church (and collected on their behalf by a supposed secular state) go to the church. Therefore if Christians pay extra taxes to their churches - good for them. But it's no fair to imply that non-christians somehow pay less taxes. An interesting point. A couple of years ago there was a vote to add Islam to the list of religions officially recognised by the state. Since it is a very popular religion (even in Switzerland) I saw no problem with that. Apparently the Swiss did and rejected it. So you are right - Muslims don't pay church taxes, they were denied that idea.

Well I haven't gone looking - I've seen a pretty big one in Weststrasse. I've also seen plenty of Jews wearing traditional clothing (would that be a "clear sign of separation" according to Tony Blair?). But nobody gives Jews a hard time these days (nor should they!) because there are, shall we say certain historical sensitivies surrounding that subject. In the past the jews were seen by some as the enemy, these days its muslims.

Of course that's true. My main point here is that very FEW people know very much about the subjects they are talking about. We are constantly hearing about all sorts of things which people claim as Islamic traditions or customs which turn out to be rubbish. I don't claim to know very much about it at all. I have travelled to Islamic countries (including arabic ones) and spoken with people about their beliefs. I've read the Bible cover to cover, but don't claim to have done the same with the Quran.

I think before we repeat half truths or lies about a religion we know very little about we should inform ourselves a little better on the subject. Why is it that we have so much trouble drawing a distinction between some extremists and the main stream of the religion? Heck, does that mean if I see some crazy Christian preacher on the TV I should start to oppose the building of churches? In the muslim world very few people follow the people who always seem to make the news with outrageous statements - they are ashamed of such people.

I'm looking at the issue in a vacuum? I should campaign against church bells? Why? Does my acceptance of a minaret mean that I must automatically reject church bells? (I do hate church bells, but that's another matter entirely). For the record there are people who campaign against church bells in this country. But they are on a hiding to nowhere.

So what you are saying is that instead of considering the minaret issue, we should put ourselves in a position to judge Islam in a "wider context". I'm sorry, but I really don't think that putting a minaret on top of a building is going to represent some sort of "tipping point" where Islam suddenly gains a foothold and starts to impose it's views on anyone else in this country. Sorry - that's just absurd. It's a minaret - people should get over it.

I understand if people want to debate the role of minority religions in a majority Christian society - such debate is healthy and should take place (in an informed manner), but to tie to whole thing to minarets is just a bit too much.

Ok, so the argument, which I seem to hear time and time again is that we shouldn't have religious freedom because people like Saudi Arabia and the Taliban don't. So we should judge our own standards by those who set the lowest? What kind of people would that make us if we allowed this sort of perverted logic to take its course? This is an extremely simplistic argument. I don't really care if other countries have lower standards of freedom or human rights - that doesn't mean that we should lower our own standards accordingly. I'm been to Islamic countries where churches stand next to mosques.

Since when does Saudi Arabia represent the entire Muslim world? Why do we have the right to judge other Muslims because of the policies of Saudi Arabia? Are these mosques in Switzerland from Saudi Arabia?

Do we really want Switzerland to become the "Saudi Arabia" of Europe? I must admit that we seem to be doing a pretty good job of it these last few years.

Well you do add, more as a parting comment, that you admit that there are divisions, and thereby by implication that the situation isn't as bad as you might have made out. You did say "merit in supporting the reasonable and moderate sections of Islam". Ok let me focus on that statement.

Does anyone believe that the particular mosques in Switzerland (the grand total of four) are associated with extreme versions of Islam? Or are they perhaps the more peaceful, mainstream types? Surely we should encourage, not discourage the peaceful ones. To reject them in this way only strengthens the idea in the mind of many peaceful Muslims that they are rejected and misunderstood by the west. It is such misunderstandings that is helping to fuel the conflict.

Such intolerance, from either side, does us no favours at all. The "problem" isn't just going to go away, it needs dialogue and understanding.

With regard to church taxes, these only apply if you declare on your tax form that you are a member of either of the two official Swiss churches, Catholic and Reformed (ie protestant). Catholics pay more tax than protestants and the amount varies from community to community, but is usually in the range of 2 - 8% of taxable income.

Thus you can be a member of any one (or all) the dozens of Christian churches that are not recognised and not pay church tax. (Like Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, JWs etc). I mean you wouldn't want to finance the competition, would you?