Same can be said about Islam.

Hah! Typical! I will leave it at that as it's obvious that you are fully brainwashed. Who can argue with that kind of logic. Just answer a simple question. What is your source of Mohammed's life and teachings? You nicely avoided that question. I could write a whole essay with direct quotes from your Islamic sources but then you would start fuming and label me extremist.


Yes no hatred in Islamic text just the people who point it out are hate mongers I have not mentioned anything about box cutters or labelled all Muslims as bad people. Whether someone is paid or not is irrelevant as long as they accurately refer to the Islamic text. Attack the message and not the messenger. I just pointed out historic facts about Islam as an ideology based on Islamic text. Your eyes are clearly closed when it comes to looking critically at your own religion.

No if I need to know anything about Islam as an ideology I will look at the founder of the religion and the books that Muslims follow. Which is exactly what I have done. I am aware of Sufis and not all were all mystical when it came to non-muslims.

Very very weak! How many Google links did you have to click before you found that? Could you please point out what exactly are the things that he has said that are inaccurate? Btw I don't base my opinion on just one book.

Anyway here is a neutral essay about Ibn Warraq on Boston Globe. He is a top bloke who has risked his life as far as I am concerned.

I have nothing for Indian govt. Indian govt was in reference to Kashmir dispute. If I had to choose between Indian govt. and Pakistani govt then I think the choice would be easy. Just because I am well informed about some subject or conflict does not mean that I am from that area or follow their religion. As you are curious I will tell you that I am not Hindu nor do I follow ANY religion! Would be silly if I discredit one Santa but then follow hundred other Santas

Why exactly are my views extremist? Have you read the old testament? Have you read Quran? have you read Hadiths? Are you aware of the life and actions of Mohammed? Are you aware of the violence that Abrahamic faiths have caused on this planet? Do you know anything about Vatican and it's history? Please don't label me extremist just because I expose the truth about extremist ideologies. It's amazing that even pointing facts is classed as being extremist these days.

Never mind I will not ruffle any more feathers

Edit-

1- Pathetic! That is all I will say to your lies or should I say apologetic views.
2- Ain't that sad? Messenger of God doing such things with 6 year old? It was an honour for a 6 year old who is clueless about stuff like that?

Jamesk who are these ladies? :-)

1. Khadija
2. Sawda
3. Ayesha
4. Omm Salama
5. Hafsa
6. Zainab (of Jahsh)
7. Juwariya
8. Omm Habiba
9. Safia
10. Maymuna (of Hareth)
11. Fatima
12. Hend
13. Asma (of Saba)
14. Zainab (of Khozayma)
15. Habla
16. Asma (of Noman)
17. Maria
18. Rayhana
19. Omm Sharik
20. Maymuna (not of Hareth)
21. Zainab (third one)
22. Khawla
23. Duba

You asked before if I was a follower of Muhammad? It was not the purpose of Muhammad life to get followers, he just wanted to get a message across which he did. The message being that behind the apparent diversity, there is one consciousness, one divinity, one omnipresent God. So, from this perspective yes, I believe that the message was correct and i feel a gratitude towards Muhammad for getting that message established firmly even in remote parts of the world. The exact same message was made by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Socrates, Lao Tsu, Krishna, Buddha, the Sufis, Guru Nanak and the Sat Gurus, etc.

Just this message is important, the 'text' does not matter. BTW: Anyone who has heard this message, and 'believes' it to be true, is considered 'Muslim' - that is the only criteria for a being a muslim. From this perspective, most of the world is 'muslim'! It is a Sufi belief that all creatures, the plants, the animals, the fish, the insects, etc are naturally aware of this, and are hence 'muslim' - man is the only one that is not, hence needs to be told this.

I'm Kashmiri and hence know a thing or two about how islamic families live. I don't know what sources you are expecting me to refer you to, but Muhammad's life is very well known - the good, the bad and the ugly. From where I'm from no one speaks Arabic, in fact very few people can even read or write, so 'sources' are not very relevant in practice - what matters is how people live. Faith, (Islam, Brahminism/Hinduism and Buddhism), is very important there - without it life would lose all meaning.

Islamic texts or Christian texts for that mater are not that relevant - particularly in societies that are illiterate and when the said texts are in foreign languages. No one reads them. Islam was not founded on nor is it based on islamic texts - the texts came afterwards.

If you read the bible and the koran no doubt you'll find lots of texts full of hatred, however that does not mean that the communities are like that. My eyes are not closed - I'm well aware of the poison that is contained in the scriptures, but that is of no consequence as no one reads it.

Islam flourished in poor socities where the people don't have time for such lofty concepts as 'ideologies'. What books does an illiterate person follow?

There is some validity to what he says, but I think that he is being used as pawn in a game that he doesn't understand, as is Salman Rushdie. I reckon that Islamic Civilisation grew as people applied the Prophets guidelines to their lives. The reversal in Islamic civilisation is directly related to the rise in Wahabism, which has it's roots in the establishement of the Saudi Wahabi House of Saud by the British. Wahab came up with the bright idea that all progress should be reversed, we should go back to the Koran or rather his interpretation of the Koran.

I know some of them are wives of the prophet, others concubines. Care to enlighten us?

Only one click is enough. Anyway here is what i found again which is enough for me.

Critics
Herbert Berg has labelled him as polemical and inconsistent in his writing.[5]Fred Donner, a professor in Near Eastern studies, notes Ibn Warraq's lack of specialist training in Arabic studies, citing "inconsistent handling of Arabic materials," and unoriginal arguments. Donner also criticizes Ibn Warraq for what he describes as "heavy-handed favoritism" and "the compiler’s [Ibn Warraq] agenda, which is not scholarship, but anti-Islamic polemic." [6]

Today, Warraq lives in a European city. (He will not specify where, for security reasons.) Thanks to a stipend from an anonymous donor arranged by the philosopher Paul Kurtz, owner of the secular-humanist publishing house Prometheus Books, he is able to live as an independent scholar.

Are you by any chance the same guy pea=ibn warraq.

I have explained in an earlier post that i have very limited knowledge about religions and religious books. I am not qualified to argue or comment on this topic. My knowledge is merely based on worldly degrees. But your posts seems to very one sided and basically targeting only the Abrahamic faiths. What i have read is extremism...as you are pointing only on the negative side. I have not seen any positive comments. And that is why i asked about your believes.
I have read somewhere that religion only guides you to correct direction. It is the evil inside you which objects and still pursue to keep the wrong track. There are billions of people who are following Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism and they are on the correct track. And there are some who follow similar religion but there paths are totally different. Same text different meanings.

The target audience of this group may not fit to your expert level. There is nobody except Jamesk who is able to counter your offenses.

I would say lets go back to the good old question of Minaret (yes or no).

Hey! Pea, you asked for it!!
After reading what you have been writing over the last few posts, very obviously, you donot have a religion, nor do you have any inclination towards one (Please correct me if I'm wrong, and thats fine, its who you are and I respect that)...according to you, all the Abrahamic faiths are rubbish etc etc....so why are you picking on one puny minaratte and the religion it is associated with?? Should it not be your mission then (since you are so passionate in your belief that everyone else who puts in two words here is crazy and doesn't know horsemanure) to tear down the symbols of every religion that you have issues with??? Perhaps you could start with the churchbells...oh hang on, pull some minarettes down along the way, and what about the Jewish synagogues....and then perhaps you could move on to other beliefs like Hinduism, Buddhism etc....burn down their churches/temples/mosques/synagogues and monasteries, just because they DONOT agree with YOU, not will they change their thinking after reading your posts!!!

Bottomline still remains the same: is our faith (or lack of it!) so shaky that a minarette scares us?



I will await the usual groan that I get from Meow [/quote]

To put Buddha on the same level as Mohammed is absolutely WRONG and a CATEGORIC LIE!

I must have been hallucinating when I witnessed countless times kids memorizing Quran, from poor to well off kids. Quran is VERY important to Muslims.


I have never said that whole communities are like that. Don't try to muddle the discussion. If a Muslim does not follow Mohammed's actions or teachings word for word then that is reflection of that person's human decency and not reflection of Mohammed's decency.

Again not really true. You are entitled to your view but not your own facts.

The book that the local religious head reads and preaches.

Yes everything is a conspiracy Salman Rushdie and everyone who researches the facts and forms their own opinion is clueless. Only Islam understands this pawn game.


Yes Islam is always the victim.


No oxygen left in your logic compartment for my flame to burn and cast any light rays. Plenty of reserve oxygen in you when it comes to conspiracy theories and "no global warming" type of debates

Jamesk I am done with you my friend. You seem like a VERY nice bloke so good luck with everything and that fantasy God. Peace out!


Greenhill the people you are quoting are well known apologists. Look up Karen Armstrong another PC apologist. Green you will find three types of sources for people who debate Islamic history and text-

1) Right wing folks who will discredit Islam and point it's obvious faults but look at their own religion through rainbow coloured glasses.
2) Karen Armstrong type of hardcore left wing apologist Dhimmis
3) Non-PC but intellectually honest people who say as it is and don't sugar coat the truth.

I have ZERO respect for 1) and 2) but fully respect for type 3). I check all three sources for complete picture. Add to that personal knowledge.

I am fully open to criticism so no problems. I am freedom of speech and thought kind of guy.


Actually all religions are rubbish to some extent. Abrahamic faiths just take the piss and take every thing to hardcore levels of absurdity. Eastern philosophies are LOT more peaceful and definitely not expansionist in nature. For example a typical Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh person would say that there are different ways ie. religions to reach God and you can pick any. A typical Christian or Muslim would say that their way is the ONLY way.

Now it's another matter that there is actually no way to reach a non-existent God You get my drift I guess.


Next time I will run by you before I pick on anything


I am a peaceful person and I have no intention of destroying anything physically Pen is mightier than the sword my friend.

No sir the actual Minarette does not scare me. It's what happens afterwards to free thinkers when such ideologies expand and take root is what scares me.

can anyone tell me what this is a picture of ?

Santa's breakfast?

PEA
I am trying not to get involved in this thread but your posts have something special that i just have to write even with my limited knowledge.

I have collected some of your valuable quotes:
Where do you stand now. Are you in the category 1) hiding behind one ideology and pretending that you don't believe in God.
Just remember a story which i heard long time ago. No reference available and it is on the humorous side..no offenses
Two men were talking about existence of God. One is a true believer and the other is like you. The argument was if the God exist or not. The believer said that imagine if there is no God and if i die i will have no problems but on the other hand if there is a God then i have found my way. You on the contrary, when you will die one day, and if there is no God it is still OK for you. But if there is a God then you are F*****.

I hope this is my last post in this thread

2 which the atheist replied, that may be, but if I'm right, you've really screwed this life and done your best to screw everyone else's life too, the only thing that pains me is that you get away with it.

No offence

I must have spent over 1 hour reading the entire thread from start to end. I'm sure my employer will appreciate it.

I see a "very simple" explanation for the Swiss authorities to reject the erection of minarettes, being as conservative as Swiss are: it's a secular state but with only 2 recognized official religions. They accept and "respect" (with a few restrictions) the right to practice different religions, but certainly don't like it. They will allow muslims to practice their faith, but don't want to see them do it. That's probably why (terrorism halo aside) muslims are far more controversial in Swiss society than Jewish.

If I was a Swiss authority I certainly wouldn't allow ANY religious symbol other than those officially recognized to be place in buildings. Be it minarettes, Buddha's eyes or Stars of David. Some will say: "then they'll have to recognize Islam, as it's 8.whatever% of the population", but that would have to be another poll, wouldn't it ?

Green Sir I have nothing to prove. If I say to you that I don't follow ANY religion and definitely don't believe in God then take my word for it. You don't have any other choice anyway. My examples say what they say because my knowledge of that region is X times more deeper than some of the other areas of the world.

Ok let's see...


Then there are democratic secular countries like India whose constitution dictates uniform civil code for all it's citizens but they have not been able to implement it for last 50+ years due to opposition from the minority Muslim community.

My statement is factually correct sir.

Could you explain why temples were destroyed and mosques built on top?

Someone wrote that Muslim invaders in India used to build temples next to Mosques as if out of goodness of their heart. Which was factually wrong hence my comments.

Any idea on the type of torture that was handed out to Sikh religious leaders to force them to convert? Would you like to see paintings depicting these tortures?

Again 100% factually correct. Sikhs were under attack from Islam and what was done to some of the Sikh gurus is historic fact.

Difference is that eastern religious philosophies are completely opposite to Abrahamic faiths and LOT more tolerant

Again factually correct.

To put Buddha on the same level as Mohammed is absolutely WRONG and a CATEGORIC LIE!

Again factually correct. What did you expect me to say? Buddha was violent and Mohammed was peaceful? Maybe both were peaceful to make you feel better? How old are you man?

I stand firmly in the category 3) that I mentioned. If I stood in category 1) or 2) then I would say so. I am not into double speak.

Ooooo I am scared...


Nice reply Cyrus
Funny thing is that Greenhill maybe did not understand your post and thanked you

If you say so. I am just pointing the facts in your posts. When i read your posts i feel that you are inclined on one side. I have no doubts about your knowledge but the things troubles me is that you focusing only on the negative side. Is there anything positive about Abrahamic religion? There must be some small tiny bit of thing which you have liked or appreciated.

So how old are you anyway?

I thanked him because i liked his prompt reply. And the quote was meant to be humorous

Before you ask your elders their age you should answer their question first :-) I am 28.


Look they are all bad as each other when it comes to hocus pocus supernatural stuff. When I say bad as each other I mean eastern religions as well. Fear also plays a big part in all this. Your last post demonstrated that clearly.

Green do you appreciate Santa, Zeus or Apollo in your everyday life? They probably mean nothing to you. Same way I feel about religion and God. No sane person would lead their life based on an imaginary God who supposedly sent a messenger thousands of years ago. I am sure if God existed he would have found a better way by now to pass his message directly to all of us.

These posts consume too much time so carry on without me.

I am 38..sorry grandpa

I am not sure about your point. Fear from who...
Bowing out...atleast we agree on one point that these posts are taking too much time. See you in next life oops thread.

Well this has turned into a right pikey's wedding...
So do they get to keep the minaret or what?

well looking at the scores on the doors .... all the way at the top in the poll that asked a pretty simple question .... Yes, mosques in Switzerland should have a minarette. Can we close this one please ? my eyes are bleeding ....

I believe this may be the sort of smiley you are looking for...



Took me 30 minutes to make that...

I agree with Greenhill, its rather hard to believe that PEA has no inclination towards any religion...that was my point....anyway, bottomline still is that even if PEA is concerned about what happens 'After' the minarette is approved (which it is, by the way), it comes back to the same thing..if our faith (whatever it may be) is shaky, then its a threat , otherwise, why lose sleep over it if we are strong in our commitment to our religion (or lack of it)...unless, there is something that is spiritually amiss in our belief system!! Anyway, we all agree to disagree, and thats fine!