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Old 14.02.2012, 11:33
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referendum on limiting second homes

"Schluss mit uferlosem Bau von Zweitwohnungen"
Seems like a daft idea to me but maybe I miss the point

This seems to be another referendum which is poorly defined.

Lots of questions for me
  • How is a second home defined?
    • If I have one in Zürich & one in Davos, which is the second one?
    • Is this only for purchased properties or includes rental?
    • If I own/rent a place in Zürich & my wife/gf owns/rents in Davos then do we have 2 homes or one each?
    • If I rent a place in Zürich 100% & my wife/gf rents in Davos for a month is this a second home?
    • If I share place in Davos with a neighbout (6 months each) is this a second home?
  • What means the 20% limit in a Gemeinde?
    • 20% of the number of properties? If a Gemeinde has a wide variety of properties like at one end houses with ten 1.5 room apartments & at the other end large villas with 15 rooms does each apartment & villa count as one?
    • 20% of the total value of properties in a Gemeinde?
    • properties with 20% of the inhabitants?
  • Will this ruin the sale/rental market in, for example, ski resorts where only foreigners will be able buy/rent because they do not have the 20% limit?
  • What happens if a Gemeinde exceeds the 20% limit? Probably many, for example, ski resorts are already over this?
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:37
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

can you reference the source of this please
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:48
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Looks like I'll be voting zweimal Nein on March 11th.
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:53
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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  • How is a second home defined?
    • If I have one in Zürich & one in Davos, which is the second one?
Whichever you are not registered at is a second (or third, etc.) home.

Tom
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:55
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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"Schluss mit uferlosem Bau von Zweitwohnungen"
Seems like a daft idea to me but maybe I miss the point

This seems to be another referendum which is poorly defined.

Lots of questions for me
  • How is a second home defined?
    • If I have one in Zürich & one in Davos, which is the second one?
    • Is this only for purchased properties or includes rental?
    • If I own/rent a place in Zürich & my wife/gf owns/rents in Davos then do we have 2 homes or one each?
    • If I rent a place in Zürich 100% & my wife/gf rents in Davos for a month is this a second home?
    • If I share place in Davos with a neighbout (6 months each) is this a second home?
  • What means the 20% limit in a Gemeinde?
    • 20% of the number of properties? If a Gemeinde has a wide variety of properties like at one end houses with ten 1.5 room apartments & at the other end large villas with 15 rooms does each apartment & villa count as one?
    • 20% of the total value of properties in a Gemeinde?
    • properties with 20% of the inhabitants?
  • Will this ruin the sale/rental market in, for example, ski resorts where only foreigners will be able buy/rent because they do not have the 20% limit?
  • What happens if a Gemeinde exceeds the 20% limit? Probably many, for example, ski resorts are already over this?
Normally these sorts of things are explained in the booklet that comes with the voting form.
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:55
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Quote:
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"Schluss mit uferlosem Bau von Zweitwohnungen"
Seems like a daft idea to me but maybe I miss the point

This seems to be another referendum which is poorly defined.


Lots of questions for me
  • How is a second home defined?
    • If I have one in Zürich & one in Davos, which is the second one?
    • Is this only for purchased properties or includes rental?
    • If I own/rent a place in Zürich & my wife/gf owns/rents in Davos then do we have 2 homes or one each?
    • If I rent a place in Zürich 100% & my wife/gf rents in Davos for a month is this a second home?
    • If I share place in Davos with a neighbout (6 months each) is this a second home?
  • What means the 20% limit in a Gemeinde?
    • 20% of the number of properties? If a Gemeinde has a wide variety of properties like at one end houses with ten 1.5 room apartments & at the other end large villas with 15 rooms does each apartment & villa count as one?
    • 20% of the total value of properties in a Gemeinde?
    • properties with 20% of the inhabitants?
  • Will this ruin the sale/rental market in, for example, ski resorts where only foreigners will be able buy/rent because they do not have the 20% limit?
  • What happens if a Gemeinde exceeds the 20% limit? Probably many, for example, ski resorts are already over this?

Isn't the first home the one in the Gemeinde where your primary taxation occurs.

I belive places in Canton Zürich are unhappy about people having a second residence in places like Wollerau but declaring that as main residence to save taxes. There was a time (or maybe they still do) that they sent detectives out to determine where you spend most time.
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Old 14.02.2012, 11:56
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Official text form admin.ch

Art. 75a (neu) Zweitwohnungen

1 Der Anteil von Zweitwohnungen am Gesamtbestand der Wohneinheiten und der für Wohnzwecke genutzten Bruttogeschossfläche einer Gemeinde ist auf höchstens zwanzig Prozent beschränkt.

2 Das Gesetz verpflichtet die Gemeinden, ihren Erstwohnungsanteilsplan und den detaillierten Stand seines Vollzugs alljährlich zu veröffentlichen.
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:02
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

I like the idea of limiting second homes. I'm voting yes.
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:03
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Official site of the proponents of the referendum
The Swiss parliament recommends a "No" vote

Flamers: please note that I have no opinion on the referendum, I just give some explanations below, so pretty please don't shoot the messenger.

Quote:
View Post
"Schluss mit uferlosem Bau von Zweitwohnungen"
Seems like a daft idea to me but maybe I miss the point

This seems to be another referendum which is poorly defined.

Lots of questions for me
  • How is a second home defined?
    • If I have one in Zürich & one in Davos, which is the second one? The one where you register as having your main residence is the "first" residence, and the other one is the "second. You're supposed to register where your "lebensmittelpunkt" is, ie where your spouse and/or children live or alternatively where you spend most of your life outside work (this may hurt some people who have a "second home" in Zurich but are officially resident in Wollerau or somesuch place).
    • Is this only for purchased properties or includes rental? Only propery that you own. Rental property would not be affected.
    • If I own/rent a place in Zürich & my wife/gf owns/rents in Davos then do we have 2 homes or one each? Unless you register at different places (ie if you declare that you consider yourself to be separated from your spouse), the place where you don't live is the second home if owned.
    • If I rent a place in Zürich 100% & my wife/gf rents in Davos for a month is this a second home? No, rental property doesn't count.
    • If I share place in Davos with a neighbout (6 months each) is this a second home? Yes, for both of you, unless.
  • What means the 20% limit in a Gemeinde?
    • 20% of the number of properties? If a Gemeinde has a wide variety of properties like at one end houses with ten 1.5 room apartments & at the other end large villas with 15 rooms does each apartment & villa count as one?
    • 20% of the total value of properties in a Gemeinde?
    properties with 20% of the inhabitants? The proposal calls for a limit of both 20% of indivdual buildings and 20% of the total square footage available for residential purposes in a Gemeinde.
  • Will this ruin the sale/rental market in, for example, ski resorts where only foreigners will be able buy/rent because they do not have the 20% limit? They do have the 20% limit.
  • What happens if a Gemeinde exceeds the 20% limit? Probably many, for example, ski resorts are already over this? Existing second homes would be grandfathered, but new second homes would only become available once the Gemeinde in question is below both 20% limits.
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:05
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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  • Will this ruin the sale/rental market in, for example, ski resorts where only foreigners will be able buy/rent because they do not have the 20% limit?

we live in a ski resort, and the 2nd home / holiday home owners have literally destroyed the place, most houses are empty the majority of the time, the village school is almost empty and the secondary school has to have multiple years in the same class just to meet the minimum class size.

The gemeinde gets very little tax and everyone suffers, instead of limiting peoples ability to buy a 2nd home, maybe they should just double tax people instead, that would make people think (unless its rented out of course)

the same situation happened in my parents village in the uk, that was in a 2nd home hot spot and the village died, the local pubs shut as they only had trade 1 or 2 days a week, the local shops shut etc and during the week the place was a ghost village.
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:23
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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The gemeinde gets very little tax and everyone suffers, instead of limiting peoples ability to buy a 2nd home, maybe they should just double tax people instead, that would make people think (unless its rented out of course)
Yes, paying some component of tax to the gemeinde would be an idea IMO, and better than outright stopping second homes.
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:25
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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Official site of the proponents of the referendum
The Swiss parliament recommends a "No" vote

Flamers: please note that I have no opinion on the referendum, I just give some explanations below, so pretty please don't shoot the messenger.
Thanks for the update

As it is often claimed that Switzerland has the lowest home ownership rate in Europe then it all seems pointless
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:29
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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we live in a ski resort, and the 2nd home / holiday home owners have literally destroyed the place, most houses are empty the majority of the time, the village school is almost empty and the secondary school has to have multiple years in the same class just to meet the minimum class size.

The gemeinde gets very little tax and everyone suffers, instead of limiting peoples ability to buy a 2nd home, maybe they should just double tax people instead, that would make people think (unless its rented out of course)

the same situation happened in my parents village in the uk, that was in a 2nd home hot spot and the village died, the local pubs shut as they only had trade 1 or 2 days a week, the local shops shut etc and during the week the place was a ghost village.
Problem with such villages is that without adequate employment in the area then the houses would probably be empty anyway. People move to where the employment is & often the reason villages are 2nd home hot spots is because there are many homes available?
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Old 14.02.2012, 12:38
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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Problem with such villages is that without adequate employment in the area then the houses would probably be empty anyway. People move to where the employment is & often the reason villages are 2nd home hot spots is because there are many homes available?

plenty of industry near us, if the homes are cheap enough people will buy them. if more people lived in the villages around us then they could afford to lay on more direct trains etc into HB etc etc
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Old 14.02.2012, 13:20
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

The land and/or the houses used as 2nd homes were of course sold to the evil outsiders by the local landowners (farmers and/or "Burgergemeinden"/"Korporationen") who got wealthy as a result.
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Old 14.02.2012, 13:35
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

And not just in Switzerland of course. Look at Dordogneshire, South West France, Spanish coast, Wales, Devon, Colorado, Florida, etc, etc.
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Old 14.02.2012, 13:55
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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The land and/or the houses used as 2nd homes were of course sold to the evil outsiders by the local landowners (farmers and/or "Burgergemeinden"/"Korporationen") who got wealthy as a result.
Many were dirt poor farmers who had struggled all their life. Some sold their land for a lot of money but many didn't make as much as you might think.

I have more problems with bank managers getting horrendous bonuses for a poor job.
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Old 14.02.2012, 13:59
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

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Many were dirt poor farmers who had struggled all their life. Some sold their land for a lot of money but many didn't make as much as you might think.
And that's fine. I just don't see why they now, once they have sold their land, support initiatives to close the door, and moan about "the village life" being destroyed. "The village life" was precisely where they "struggled all their life".

Give your above post, I'm surprised you said you'd vote "yes".
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Old 14.02.2012, 14:04
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Like so many initiatives, it's too extreme and will, like the majority be rejected...
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Old 14.02.2012, 14:05
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Re: referendum on limiting second homes

Talk to the residents in Oberengadin. They are moaning about lack of income, high prices and they can no longer afford to live in their hometown because of the high cost of housing. Once locals are forced to leave their community because they can no longer afford it, you can be sure there is something definitely wrong with the system.
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