-
Terribly low ? His crime was a simple theft

-
What tax authority ? The point is that three individuals bought stolen stuff. And this is CRIMINAL. A "poor state" ? NRW is larger than Switzerland and Austria together and so a very big German state.

-
What a court in Germany has already decided is irrelevant. Their verdict also is irrelevant. Relevant is that those three criminals purchased stolen stuff. Had you referred to a verdict of the Bundesgericht in Lausanne, things would indeed be different

-
Which means that the Bundesanwaltschaft now claims "Anstiftung zu Diebstahl" ?! Alright, let them prove this point, once any of the culprits is caught in Switzerland ! The culprit(s) would/will have a Swiss lawyer for the defence who will cut this accusation to pieces, maintaining that the accused simply were lured into accepting an interesting offer. And this would just be an "offence" resulting in a fine of CHF 500.--

-
if the CDs were not picked up in Switzerland, the case of the Bundesanwaltschaft is to collapse as no Swiss court will pursue something done in Germany. I just understood it in the way most people did.

-
And what is criminal about telling people how to place their money in a better way ? CS and UBS always told people in other countries that to deposit their money overhere was more tax-efficient. The tax-authority you mention simply can scan through the PR stuff of CS and UBS to find this. To tell people the truth is NOT criminal. Not at all.

Sure, I might advise CS managers to abstain from shopping trips to Germany in the immediate future

The Principality of Liechtenstein is NOT part of the Swiss Confederation, and so, this was NOT something for any Swiss authorities.

According to the courts was it more than that: economic espionage. God, I even posted the link to the paragraph, would you mind to read it before you write another 1000 word answer?

But even if it wasn't: If some criminal low life breaks into a jeweller and steals some watches will he for sure end up in jail. If a bank manager hurts his bank in the size of hundreds of millions - and it is hard to say how many PB clients left CS after all this media coverage - does he get a fine of 3500 CHF and has to pay some months of his salary to CS. Yes, I think this is ridiculously low.

They are not individuals, they acted in their role as Steuerfahnder which have in Germany police status. In that role is it absolutely legal to buy stolen data. Both in Germany and Switzerland. Nobody is discussing this, not even the Bundesanwaltschaft. You are missing the point by a mile. The alleged crime is not that they bought stolen data, but probably "ordered" the theft. That would be illegal.

Somalia is larger than Switzerland as well, does this make it rich? NRW is for German standards not a rich Bundesland and has a lot of debt. 97 Million Euro is a lot of money for them.

You must be kidding me. We are not talking about "more tax efficient" or "better", we are talking about hiding money from the authorities. Not declaring your savings and the taxes on the capital gains is a crime in Germany, so helping your clients doing so is of course "Beihilfe". I frankly get the impression that you do not know much about banking, so in short: There are a lot of rules and regulations a private banker has to follow. They know exactly what they are allowed to offer their clients and what not. So a banker can advertise that Switzerland is a safe and stable place and offers world class bank privacy (with a track record of stole customer data...). So he can give hints that it is possible to hide your money, but he cannot actively sell a tax dodging service and is already in hot water if the client tells him that he is dodging his taxes. That is something that goes without saying and the bank really really does not want to know. If the documents in question proof that CS not only knew but willfully broke those laws and regulations can this turn out to become very expensive. You can bombard us with another essay, but that is simply a fact and the only reason the Germans were willing to pay millions for those documents.

-
What courts ? It has not yet been in court. I cannot read things of the future as I am not a clairvoyant. The Bundesanwaltschaft is not a court but an agency for the prosecution


-
They outisde Germany are simply individuals. Whatever role they felt to fulfil is irrelevant



-
Somalia ? You compare Somalia with NRW ? You compare the cities of Köln and Düsseldorf with Mogadishu ? You compare the Ruhrgebiet with fishery in Somalia ? You compare an industrial powerhouse of Europe with a poor area on the horn of Africa ? Yes, NRW has all the problems of an old European industrial quarter. NRW housed the Gross-Industrie which in this size was never existing in Switzerland. But it still is home of industry and big-banking. And again, with the City of Köln it has one of the best cities in Europe. And lots of qualities still. So, while I can understand the stance of the NRW chiefs and might in their positions have supported any "actions" as the ones mentioned, I do NOT have much sentimental regrets for them either. As the mayor of Dortmund just yesterday explaind to Swiss TV, it is a scandal that a suffering city in NRW has to support rich cities in the former GDR.


-
"Hiding money from the authorities" ? Really ? Not declaring things by mistake ? This may be a crime in Germany, but it is none in Switzerland.
-
My suggestion ? Let Germany take over the Swiss legislation, and hey-presto, all the world will shift the money to Germany, sizing down CS and UBS to decent levels

I was referring to the excitement in Switzerland about the use of stolen data by German tax authorities - double standards ?
And Swiss laws protecting banking secrecy are of zero relevance in Germany.

Swiss laws are of zero relevance in Germany but German laws are of zero relevance in Switzerland.

I do not remember any excitement in Switzerland about the use of the stolen data by those chaps of some German authorities. As there never was. What you apparently refer to is some bankers having been infuriated.

Exactly, this is the problem.

My relatives in Germany are constantly complaining about taxes, but also complaining the government doesn't do enough for them. They get Bafög, Kindergeld and lots of very generous handouts. You want to renovate your house? The government subisidises it. You want a new car? The government subsidises you for trashing the old one. Heck, you even get subsidies for having a savings account. But they don't see the connection between that and their taxes. Too many Germans expect the state to do and fix everything for them and fail to recognise that this money is ultimately coming from their own pockets. And then they get indignated that people who can afford it move their money overseas. People need to wake up and see that if they didn't have such high taxes they wouldn't need so many subsidies. And then the richer folks wouldn't need to smuggle their money out of the country.

The German welfare state is extremely well developed. But this of course means that salaries including "Lohnnebenkosten" at the bottom are HIGHER than in Switzerland. The Germans most of all should stop subsidizing the building of private homes. The times when Germany had space ended by 1945. And nowadays, Germany (after Switzerland and a few others) is among the most densely populated countries in Europe and so should support rented apartments.

Sorry to say it so directly, but most Swiss have not much clue about Germany as they rarely travel there.

Some fun fact: 20% of the WORKING part of society live on 900 EUR or less a month. BEFORE TAX, social insurances and everything else. In order to get subsidies for your house renovation do you need to be able to afford a house in the first place, the subsidies for new cars were not some wellfare but indirect subsidies for the car manufacturing industry during the worst year of the financial crisis - and an average middle class kid like me did not get any Bafoeg (which is btw not all cash on hand but you'll have to pay half of it back as a student loan).

The German welfare state was well developed in the 70s and has been in a steep decline since then. The current Hatrz 4 rate on which 6.7 Million people lived last year is 374 Eur a month (plus the real costs for your low end flat). In short is it much better to be poor in Switzerland than in Germany, end of. Germany was ruled the vast majority of the last four decades by conservative politicians. They strengthened the industry and rich a lot while the real income of middle and working class sunk. That's why the export oriented German industry is standing strong while the actual employee does not see anything in his pocket from this strength. Guess why so many high educated Germans leave their country? Not because of some leftist politics, but quite the opposite - anything from healthcare to retirement funds or social insurances are stronger in Switzerland than Germany.

But since people change their perception much slower than reality changes do especially Swiss and Brits still believe that Germany is some near socialist country.

Not only that, but many people forget that €1 of you spending your money gives you €1 of goods and services that can be purchased. With the government however, €1 of taxpayer money DOES NOT buy the same €1 of goods and services but a lot less. The shortfall gets funnelled away in public administration, overpaying/ overcharging, fixed tender contracts etc etc etc.

Reminds me of the 4 ways that money is spent:

1. You buy something with your money for yourself (you care about price and the quality/use of the product)
2. You buy something with your money for someone else (you care about the price and a little less about the product)
3. You buy something with someone elses money for yourself (you dont care about the price but do care about the product)
4. You buy something with someone elses money for someone else (you dont care about the price and neither about the product)

- guess which one government often represents

-
Right and wrong at the same time. Germany is a prime destination for short-holiday makers from Switzerland. And Swiss people travel to Germany very frequently indeed. BUT of course mostly to Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria, too fairly wealthy Bundesländer. Or when visiting NRW visit Bonn and Köln. I remember that my visit to Bonn (hotel-room on the Hardthöhe) and Köln then lead me to Aachen and Luxemburg and Brüssel, so that I cannot "judge" NRW in total in any way. When people from here visit Saxonia it is Leipzig-Halle (sure Halle is in Sachsen-Anhalt) and/or Dresden. Lots of Swiss travel to the Rheinland (Rheinland-Pfalz and Hessen) which again are relatively well off. And when I look round in Friedrichshafen, Konstanz, München, Ulm, Stuttgart, Mannheim, Frankfurt and Köln I do not have the impression that people there are so badly off.

-
A) the social welfare state in Germany was established by the Konrad Adenauer government, and Mr Adenauer was not exactly a "leftist" politician, to put it mildly
B) One Bundeskanzler who reduced the welfare state was Gerhard Schröder who was, if I remember correctly, a member of the SPD
C) Healthcare in Germany is, or was at least, free-of-charge, while in Switzerland many people find it difficult or impossible to pay the bills of the private Krankenkassen.
D) Why do so many highly-qualified Germans get out ?
- career-perspectives ?
- less taxes ?
- no longer see hopes in real social and economic + scientific progress ?

-
Switzerland was rather slow in building up the AHV system and the SUVA and IV, but did the job thoroughly. And being in arrears at times allowed CH to learn from mistakes done in Germany. I admit, sometimes a pioneering nation has to pay and a slow "latecomer" will profit from the situation, wich is a bit unfair, but life is not fair

-
In Switzerland, nobody regards Germany as a socialist country. As the wife of a colleague is German (handicapped) and we for many years had a German employee, we often compared things in D and in CH and in some aspects, CH was better but in quite many aspects D was better.
-- btw. read the comments of "LiB" about Switzerland he made in the past 3 years, and you will see that he who for many years stayed abroad as a CH expat was not too enthusiastic about CH. So that also you may, while knowing the negative facts, possibly are a bit too negative about your country.

Well I think Otto Von Bismarck can claim the fame there. Adenauer was 7 yrs old when the health insurance bill of 1883 was set in motion.

I wonder when you write 'free of charge' if you do that with a straight face? It costs per GDP in Germany around as much as in Switzerland and there is nothing free about it. Unfortunately health care costs are growing all over the western world, and whether you hand it over as taxes or from a health insurance invoice is irrelevant, it is still expensive for many and everyone (even the unemployed via indirect taxes) still have to pay it.

All of the above - at least thats what the hundreds of Germans in Australia told me. The germans i speak to have not only left, but say they will NEVER return. Since reunification Germany has had growth rates approx 1% and unemployment rates averaging 9%, is it any wonder that many people are looking at a brighter future elsewhere. They are paying a lot of taxes and will receive less services, who would look forward to that? In fact many Germans have just woken up to the fact that their taxes are also going outside Germany.

haha, yeah, except for the 'left' of the east . Or were those communists not 'leftist'?

To highlight, your forgetting that hard left paradise of East Germany. That has cost ALL germans a hell of a lot of money to fix - more than $2 trillion to be precise and im willing to bet it has cost a hell of a lot more than that figure i.e. when you account for the drag on the economy. Imagine all the things Germans could have used that money for instead of using it to 'fix' the east.

Its the taxes that are burying the middle class, but i agree the rich/poor divide is growing because of government. The middle class are forgoing their savings in the hope that the government will look after them in the future.

Its obvious to me why - because they are a little more 'user pays' than Germany. Remember that German retirement funds DONT exist, they have been spent and are unfunded liabilities. These liabilities amount to $9- $10trillion, and no its not a misprint - its a hell of a load of money and good luck to those young germans who are being given the baton to pay it.

To put that figure into perspective, the UK has slightly smaller population but its unfunded liabilities are 3-4 times less.

By free-of-charge I of course mean free of charge for the individual customers, but not the actual costs of healthcare
-
And to the credit of Germany, it is the only mainly Western country which in the past 20 years had to absorb a formerly communist part.

I beg to differ: These days many towns are fighting depopulation issues - they actually have to scale back rental homes, utility infrastructure etc. because of a decreasing population - you need to have a certain number of people flushing their loos to keep the sewage systems up and running. This is more acute in former GDR, but is an issue in parts of the West as well.
Don't confuse prosperous and prospering urban regions around Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt or Hamburg with Germany.

It's free of charge only for non-working family members, but a decent amount of your salary is deducted for health insurance.

Alright, right you are, but do not forget that many West European countries including Italy, due to the age-structures, have to deal with DEpopulation issues. This is why my mother, almost until her death spoke about the "Zürich Bevölkerungsamt" as the "Zürcher ENTvölkerungsamt". She told me just two month before the end "tell the chaps of our ENTvölkerungsamt that I do not want too see some of them in black suits at my grave " . But it is not wise to support schemes for people between 55 and 105 in favour of them having homes for themselves and neglecting the rented flats for people of between 20 and 95 . Realize btw. that more than 80% of the German visitors to Switzerland come from Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Rheinland-Pfalz and Hessen plus Köln, Hamburg and Leipzig.

And just wait. Within less then a decade, the former GDR areas will be finally catching up, and wealthy people there will buy up houses in the countryside. If you see that "real-Berlin" is already stretching halfway to Frankfurt an der Oder and many kilometers to the West into western Brandenburg, and that Leipzig-Halle, in spite of being in two Bundesländer gradually become ONE city, you may see that realities in a not too distant future will look different from your present perceptions. I in previous posts took views of a member of the German Weimar parliament. His name, in the 1920ies was Konrad Adenauer.

Look at Switzerland. In 1915, at the Wiener Kongress, a Swiss delegation was lectured about the fact that Switzerland would once become narrow and overpopulated by Czar Alexander I but they refused to believe him. It only took 200 years until he got proven right .....

Switzerland has the priciest CDs in the world at the rate this is going.

Another two CDs were acquired.

Source

yes, the Germans got Switzerlanded.

They should have gone across the border.

Nevertheless, the German system of subsidizing the construction and owning of property is populistic in nature and distorts the market and is essentially buying votes for the government of today with money that future generations will have to repay.