for many multi-national companies, the high-paid positions here in Switzerland are developmental jobs for people who are expected to move elsewhere outside of Switzerland - and it is very difficult to get Swiss employees to leave Switzerland, particularly if upward advancement means living in the US, Latin America or Asia. this is not universally the case, of course, but it tends to be the general rule, the firm I am with has had entire offices quit when asked to relocate offices to a village not more than 15km up the lake.

P.S. the Swiss education system already eliminates roughly 8 out of every 10 students from having access to those jobs in the first place.

Really, and your evidence of this is based on what? the media?

The only reason CH sticks out like a sore thumb in certain areas is because it hasnt followed to an excessive extent the spend, spend, spend who cares about tomorrow mentality that many voters crave in other parts of the world esp. EU and US. That however is not isolation it is merely a threat made by some cash strapped countries.

In CH this problem is less so than other parts of Europe i.e. Germany who have collected ALL the money from social sec, and then spent it!!!

But you cant grow the workforce forever just because of an impending pension problem - the pensions in Europe should never have been guaranteed in the first place. The whole European issue stems on the fact that people want the existing workforce to support their pensions - that logic however cannot continue forever because the existing workforce needs even more jobs than the one that preceded it - what happens then is that standards of living start to fall off as the government makes up a larger part of the economy.

A good starting solution would be to accept the facts that NOBODY can be expected nor forced to pay for someone elses retirement when you can hardly even look after your own. The reality of this will hit voters, sooner rather than later. This problem of course is a lot worse outside of CH.

Forget wealthy foreigners. Even poor people and the middle class need somewhere to live. Its not just 10 bedroom palaces where the rents are rising it is across the board. Whether a palace goes from 10K CHF to 13.5K CHF/month does no where near as much damage as a 3 room apartment going from 1500 to 2000 CHF/mth. And if you want to know why, then the 70K net immigration into CH is a good starting point. If people are happy to accept their 70K net immigration then they must also be happy to accept the costs of that i.e infrastructure, higher rents, fuller trains, more pupils in school etc etc

In the short term, one will ALWAYS affect the other considerably.

In terms of purchase, the problem is much more deeper than that though, the fact that credit costs are cheap to financing a house is the biggest reason to why house prices are going up.

I meant the mentality of the people rathe than economically/politically. I am fully aware that the last decade has probably been the biggest step towards Europe for Switzerland whether people realise/want it or not. In 2000 we weren't even part of the UN - now we've virtually abolished our borders with Europe and given readily-accessible work permits to (most) of the EU. However the mindset of many people is still very much that we should have as little to do with Europe as possible - and in many ways the more we become integrated in the EU the bigger these voices grow - but thats the same in any society.


So what are you proposing instead? Abolish welfare altogether? Have everyone rely on their own savings and encourage people to invest in shares and financial products instead? I can tell you thats not going to happen anytime soon and for good reasons too.

Well I really don't think the people are actually very happy to accept the 70k net immigration in the first place but quite frankly they aren't given much choice. I can guarantee you that if we had a referendum that actually asked directly "Do you want 70K net immigrants per annum" it would be turfed out with a massive majority. We accept it because politically it is part of a bigger package. Don't think everyone is always fully aware of the consequences on either side of the equation and in fact the political tone how these problems are discussed is getting rather nastier (Example? --> )


So what? Are you telling me that property prices of different sized homes are completely independent of each other? Keep dreaming. Few places on this continent have as few land reserves as Switzerland and we're concreting them over at an alarming pace. Each Gemeinde only has a limited number of land reserves available and many places have completely overcommitted themselves already. Housing prices are going op for everyone - primarily because we keep building like idiots without thinking of the consequences and yes, the extremely low interest rates definitely largely to blame for that also.

No it isnt. The majority of Swiss want relations with Europe. People just dont want to be told by a few in Brussels how they should run their lives - that has nothing to do with Europe, but with Brussels/EU. I have never heard a Swiss say 'I hate Europe' or 'I want little to do with Europe'!!. Substitute 'Europe' with 'EU' and then you get Swiss talking.

Welfare, shares, financial products? Yeah right, thats for another thread, you were talking pensions.

If you think that a pension system can pay you out until the day you die in EXCESS of what you put in indefinitely - then you are dreaming. It isnt possible but at the average level, that is what is expected. Most people are completely clueless to even how a majority of pension systems work.

- Pension systems in many parts of western world from the day they were invented have been paying out to collectees well in excess to what they put in. This will continue until one day the music stops
- Many governments in Europe who have collected money from pensions etc etc have spent ALL the money. The money is gone!!
- Germanys unfunded liabilities are at $9trillion - that will be a sum to be paid for from a future workforce - well thats whats hoped and the core of the problem

LOL Where on earth do you think 'pension' start at in its lifecycle? Welcome to the real world - a place where the situation ultimately ends up.

No thats not why house prices go up. We have a rental market and a buyers market. Switzerland is building apartments like idiots because people coming into Switzerland need to be housed somewhere but the imbalance with whats on supply and what is demanded pushes rental prices UP - this is the effect in the rental market with apartments.

House purchase prices are mainly a function of availability of credit and credits price. Many houses are sold prior to being built.

Welfare and pensions aren't as far from each other as you may indicate - depending on the model used by each country. And I think there are probably few other places where people are as well aware of their pension system as in Switzerland - every round of referenda there seems to be another solution thrown in of how to fix the AVH. So at least the politically moderately interested should have some clue. The Swiss are "lucky" in the sense that there is a government scheme (AHV) that can be pretty much relied on - or at elast up until now it could. By comparison, schemes like the Australian superannuation you primarily rely on investments made with your own money - and if you planned to retire in 2008/09 that could have backfired very badly and did for many as the financial products linked to their accounts were all of a sudden worth next to nothing. So here's my link to that.

Anyway, for all the ranting and boasting on your behalf, you haven't exactly proposed a credible alternative I'm afraid. So I think we might be stuck with the current system for a while yet. I guess we both agree though that the entire system is basically a gigantic snowball scheme and bound to collapse eventually. Which is pretty darn annoying for people in their 20s like myself who may just be paying into it for most of their lives only to realise that we only ever funded the retirement of the previous generation before having the whole thing collapsing without ever getting anything out of it ourselves.

The Australian superannuation system has compulsory contributions made by the employer so its not necessarily contributions of your own money. You can, and it is tax beneficial and wise to contribute some more which can give you a bigger retirement fund.

Both the Australian superannuation and American 401k systems you as an individual can nominate what type of assets you want your money is invested in. People approaching retirement should not have had majority of their money in shares. Its true a lot of people saw their pension funds reduced dramatically but most of the world had forgotten about risk. Everyone had enjoyed big gains and didn't see the possibility of the crash and were invested heavily in the wrong areas.

Im hoping (and it may be more hope than good planning) that we are in a good enough financial position that we are not reliant on any government body or company for our retirement (especially US social security).

I just thought that in fairness to many of the regular posters at EF, somebody should point out that "the boat crowd" does not represent all native English speakers in Switzerland, many of whom not only learn the local language and integrate into Swiss society, but also become Swiss citizens.

well said - access to the better undergrad university degrees is constrained through the incredibly restrictive 'gymnasium' entry requirements.

What's the problem? Genuine question.

Are you suggesting that more people should go to college despite being unable to meet the requirements? I imagine you'd then end up with a whole lot of degreed people who can't find jobs, as with many other countries. There's always going to be a bottleneck somewhere, I'm not sure that post 5-year time waste is a better option than pre 5-year time waste.

there is an old joke (well, half joke anyway) that the "C" in "C-level" is the grade point average of the people who end up sitting in the chairs. the irony being that advancing in a firm these days without a university degree is almost impossible, at least at any multi-national firm.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Swiss education system, in fact I greatly admire it. but the "weeding" process in real life happens after 30, and the Swiss education system starts the process at 12.

Which doesn't make sense, as it is almost impossible here, to branch off into a different field after you have completed your apprenticeship. Basically, somebody would be stuck with whatever dreams and aspirations they had when they were 15.

The elite were NEVER INTERGRATED, that's why they are called the elite.

I think that what is being referred to is the intellectual elite and those who serve directly below the intellectual elite. The elite are out of sight, behind a big forest, usualy travel from home to city in helicopters and don't use steps.

1.Elite (members of old families with few exceptions)


2.Intellectual elite (highly educated and usualy hold titles outside of USA. There are usualy solid connections linking them with the elite; i.e married daugter of elite etc and/or have blood oath type agreement to serve and preserve rule by elites)


3. The rest. (upperclass, middle and lower class; all whether they know it or not in the same boat)

Yep, in the vast majority of cases this holds firm. Of course there are exceptions but these are few and far between; such as those who have the financial backing to change professions as well as the connections and right attitude to start again in an enviroment which usualy (but not always) requires a different corporate mentality.

I think it's the fact that once a decision is taken on behalf of an 11-year-old, it seems that it's almost impossible to change the person's destiny.

Not being a parent, I wasn't aware of this until quite recently, when a friend described the choice she and her son were having to make at that age. Quite shocking.

Great tips from Corbets!

I've had at least 2 locals from the Italian and French part of CH complain to me that it's so hard for them to feel welcome by the German-speaking population of their own country. I think this also qualifies as an 'integration' problem... of their own people. Or they can think of it as a positive thing that makes the country more interesting and diverse. If they can ignore this problem / accept this condition, they should also accept that expats have their own culture and language *duh*, and this can be seen as a negative or positive thing depending on how you want to look at it. Do they think NY is a crappy place because they have so many languages and cultures there? I think not.

Of course as expats we'll still try to respect the local rules and ways, but things like the language barrier is I feel, such a small issue that they make as the 'pillar of integration'... of course it helps, but maybe they should just give in and embrace English as a 2nd language as the rest of the world does? After all, they already teach it in schools. Many Swiss people can speak English but they just won't or have forgotten most of it due to lack of use. While we are trying to learn and speak German (or French or Italian) but sometimes just can't find the right words to say what we mean. I think broken German or English should be appreciated and not frowned upon, but perhaps the Swiss are too 'correct' to agree with that. I think they should just be mellow and take it easy, unless some expat's broken the law or something

broken German is one thing, but I have never had anybody take issue with my broken Swiss German. it is usually greeted with a smile, a polite correction (where the mistake is within the range of correction) and a joke about how difficult the language can be to non-natives.

perhaps of course this is just because making fun of gringos is something of a reputable hobby in Zurich.

Ever heard of the Rhine?

People with 'up and go' and prepared to put in the time and effort + short term financial constraints will NOT get stuck - they will find ways and means to make the necessary changes- or indeed end up bitter and resentful.
I know many people here who have gone back to do a very different second apprenticeship as young adults, and others who have worked to make the conversion to go to Uni or Poly. Yes, it takes guts and courage, but it can be done- I've many examples. One of my ex-students did apprenticeship in the building trade, and now is studying architecture at UNI. It can be done.