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  #81  
Old 15.01.2008, 14:18
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

This 'who needs $10bn anyway?' is catching - it's Citigroup's turn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7188909.stm

US banking giant Citigroup has reported a $9.83bn (£5bn) net loss for the last three months of 2007. Chief executive Vikram Pandit said the loss had been caused by a $18.1bn exposure to bad mortgage debt and was "clearly unacceptable".


Any more...?
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  #82  
Old 15.01.2008, 14:25
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Absolutely no doubt there will be. HSBC have already. Nothing is new, remember Midland and Crocker Bank?
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  #83  
Old 15.01.2008, 16:25
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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This 'who needs $10bn anyway?' is catching - it's Citigroup's turn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7188909.stm

US banking giant Citigroup has reported a $9.83bn (£5bn) net loss for the last three months of 2007. Chief executive Vikram Pandit said the loss had been caused by a $18.1bn exposure to bad mortgage debt and was "clearly unacceptable".


Any more...?
Loads - there's reportedly $400bn of toxic bonds in the system. Depends on how long they can keep it off the books.

And that's before any UK housing meltdown. Lots of debt there has been 'securitized' too so probably quite a few billions more of junk bonds secured against UK mortgages.


Coming next from the US - the Credit Card meltdown. After realising how much cash they could make from selling secured mortgage debt to greedy idiots the moneylenders did the same thing with unsecured credit card debt and, incredibly, found willing buyers. Now defaults on CC debt are on the rise in the US......
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  #84  
Old 15.01.2008, 16:30
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Congratulations. Suprime was voted "2007 word of the year" by the American Dialect Society.

link
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  #85  
Old 15.01.2008, 16:39
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Dodger, I know you meant 'subprime' but I reckon your typo is an excellent new word.... a cross between sub-prime and supine?

If you take option 3 of these definitions from thefreedictionary.com:

su·pine (s-pn, spn)adj.
1.
Lying on the back or having the face upward.
2. Having the palm upward. Used of the hand.
3. Marked by or showing lethargy, passivity, or blameworthy indifference.
4. Inclined; sloping.

It describes the bankers perfectly - lying on their backs and not giving a flying hoo-haa who they lent money to

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Congratulations. Suprime was voted "2007 word of the year" by the American Dialect Society.

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  #86  
Old 15.01.2008, 17:09
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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Dodger, I know you meant 'subprime' but I reckon your typo is an excellent new word.... a cross between sub-prime and supine?

If you take option 3 of these definitions from thefreedictionary.com:

su·pine (s-pn, spn)adj.
1.
Lying on the back or having the face upward.
2. Having the palm upward. Used of the hand.
3. Marked by or showing lethargy, passivity, or blameworthy indifference.
4. Inclined; sloping.

It describes the bankers perfectly - lying on their backs and not giving a flying hoo-haa who they lent money to
3. yes, but let's not forget the universal sign of asking for money:

2. Having the palm upward. Used of the hand.
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Old 15.01.2008, 17:12
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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Dodger, I know you meant 'subprime' but I reckon your typo is an excellent new word.... a cross between sub-prime and supine?

If you take option 3 of these definitions from thefreedictionary.com:

su·pine (s-pn, spn)adj.
1. Lying on the back or having the face upward.
2. Having the palm upward. Used of the hand.
3. Marked by or showing lethargy, passivity, or blameworthy indifference.
4. Inclined; sloping.

It describes the bankers perfectly - lying on their backs and not giving a flying hoo-haa who they lent money to
marvellous. It reminds me of George Galloway calling labour MPs a spineless, supine bunch.
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  #88  
Old 18.01.2008, 12:22
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

UBS shakes up investment banking division to reduce risk
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  #89  
Old 18.01.2008, 12:55
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

The rumour is, UBS are 40B in the hole, which is a further 25B to disclose to shareholders, the next disclosure will be approx 8B. Look also at the share price, 2nd Feb 2007 = Sfr 80.90, 18th January 2008 = Sfr 44.10......... Oh. i say to myself, whats that funny smell of cow dodah ?
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Old 18.01.2008, 13:04
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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The rumour is, UBS are 40B in the hole, which is a further 25B to disclose to shareholders, the next disclosure will be approx 8B. Look also at the share price, 2nd Feb 2007 = Sfr 80.90, 18th January 2008 = Sfr 44.10......... Oh. i say to myself, whats that funny smell of cow dodah ?
wouldn't surprise me if there is more to come, as I don't think any of the bnks have a really good handle on this ...

rumour, speculation, anything to back this up ? ...

am actually trying to find the bottom of the market on UBS for some private investment ...
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  #91  
Old 18.01.2008, 13:37
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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The rumour is, UBS are 40B in the hole, which is a further 25B to disclose to shareholders, the next disclosure will be approx 8B. Look also at the share price, 2nd Feb 2007 = Sfr 80.90, 18th January 2008 = Sfr 44.10......... Oh. i say to myself, whats that funny smell of cow dodah ?
Wow - if that's true (or even close to the mark) then no wonder they aren't announcing the whole thing in one shot.


There's another credit-crunch related crisis about to hit. A number of 'monoline' insurers of AAA bonds (much of this subprime shite got AAA ratings somehow) are teetering on the brink of solvency.

Certain funds are only allowed to buy AAA bonds - like pension funds etc. As part of the AAA status, they must be insured.

If the monoline insurers fold, then the bonds which they insure will lose their AAA rating - meaning that the holders will be forced to dump them onto the market: Which entails huge losses and markdowns for them as they will be worth less than what they are currently valued at on the books.

It will also set a market price for the CDO/MBS crud which would most likely have huge repercussions for organisations which so far have desperately tried to avoid setting a market price for their toxic subprime 'assets'.

Current rumours suggest a Northern Rock style buy out of the monolines by the Federal Reserve.
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  #92  
Old 18.01.2008, 13:49
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

When will the rush for the hills begin I wonder. It does make the mind boggle at the sheer stupidity of the this whole mess. Bankers they call themselves! I could think of some other name, but I will not here. Suffice to say, what I said already, the management teams should be sacked forthwith, with no golden parachutes, in disgrace.
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Old 18.01.2008, 14:13
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

UBS shares are going nowhere, apart from possibly further South until after the extraordinary shareholders meeting. Here as well a lot of existing shareholders are fed up, they too would like a guaranteed 9%
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Old 18.01.2008, 14:15
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

Thanks for this. So the 9% buy in by the Saudis hasn't helped?
I have been looking at them this morning and considering a purchase on NYSE next Thursday, thinking there must be a recovery in sight soon
This link seemed interesting to me
http://investing.businessweek.com/re...asp?symbol=UBS
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  #95  
Old 18.01.2008, 14:28
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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The rumour is, UBS are 40B in the hole, which is a further 25B to disclose to shareholders, the next disclosure will be approx 8B. Look also at the share price, 2nd Feb 2007 = Sfr 80.90, 18th January 2008 = Sfr 44.10......... Oh. i say to myself, whats that funny smell of cow dodah ?
This would not suprise me, as sub-prime foreclosures have yet to peak. It somehow reminds me of Swissair all over again.... arrogance and ignorance placing hands deep in the cookie jar to try to get the edge on the competition...but no contingency for when it all goes pear-shaped.
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Old 18.01.2008, 15:46
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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This would not suprise me, as sub-prime foreclosures have yet to peak. It somehow reminds me of Swissair all over again.... arrogance and ignorance placing hands deep in the cookie jar to try to get the edge on the competition...but no contingency for when it all goes pear-shaped.
Never mind the future foreclosures even - most of the banks and brokerages haven't fully disclosed existing losses. And then there's the matter of what the Pension funds are holding which the monoline insurance problems may well bring to the fore.

And after that there are the losses to come from the European housing markets (Esp. Ireland, the UK and Spain) - many mortgages sold there were securitized too.

And it looks like the in the US there is now developing a problem of defaulters on Credit Card debts. Guess what, since securitizing mortgage debt was such a great and profitable idea the banks hit on the idea of doing likewise with Credit Card debts too.....


EDIT: Just read the latest plans for propping up the US economy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=a8yxi15z4aTE

DON'T PANIC.

Last edited by Gav; 18.01.2008 at 15:56. Reason: Additional info.
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Old 18.01.2008, 15:47
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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UBS shares are going nowhere, apart from possibly further South until after the extraordinary shareholders meeting. Here as well a lot of existing shareholders are fed up, they too would like a guaranteed 9%
Has there been one set up? Should be some fireworks.....
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  #98  
Old 18.01.2008, 16:01
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

I'm no financial type here, most of this thread is beyond me....

Approx how many people are going to lose their homes? I understand the subprime market collapsed when someone realised a significant number of the subprime mortgages and loans sold were going to default. With the ammount of money lost it sounds like millions of poor suckers are going to get visits from the baillifs and their houses repossesed.
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Old 18.01.2008, 16:31
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonal_bank


I've always understood cantonal banks to be among the safest banks in the world because they are guaranteed/backed by the relevant canton. I guess you would need to contact your local cantonal bank and see to what extent they have been privatised and how they are guaranteed by the cantonal, or possibly federal, government?
What about Post Finance? I heard they are fully guaranteed....
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Old 18.01.2008, 16:49
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Re: Yet more sub-prime UBS woes another $10bn writedown....

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What about Post Finance? I heard they are fully guaranteed....
There is no such thing.
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