Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 18.12.2012, 17:30
cdcdoc's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fehraltorf / ZH
Posts: 1,020
Groaned at 30 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 758 Times in 385 Posts
cdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond repute
swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Interesting article today:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=34262848

It would be interesting to see how the portuguese EFers see it
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:07
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,093
Groaned at 74 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 5,819 Times in 3,043 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

What do you want to know?

It's a rather straight forward article. I would dispute that the Portuguese are some how unknown. But maybe we just have a way to recognize each other.

I see Portuguese people every where!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:11
cdcdoc's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fehraltorf / ZH
Posts: 1,020
Groaned at 30 Times in 24 Posts
Thanked 758 Times in 385 Posts
cdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond reputecdcdoc has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Well to be honest I do not see so many but I really liked the last paragraph:

"I think that with the Portuguese, Switzerland has hit the jackpot. It has found people ready to accept the least prestigious and hardest jobs, and behave totally in line with what the Swiss expect in terms of immigration. Switzerland could not function without the Portuguese."

It is nice to hear this about a group of people Good for them!



Quote:
View Post
What do you want to know?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank cdcdoc for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:21
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 14,620
Groaned at 196 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 15,935 Times in 7,083 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Sadly this too: from Le Temps last year:

Le syndicat Unia a bloqué jeudi matin un gros chantier à Aclens (VD). Des ouvriers détachés par une entreprise portugaise recevaient des salaires inférieurs de 80% à la CCT. L’entreprise adjudicataire allemande s’est engagée à les payer au tarif suisse.
Ces travailleurs étaient payés 3,15 euros de l’heure (3,78 francs), à peine un cinquième du salaire minimum prévu par la convention collective (CCT) de la maçonnerie, a dénoncé Unia. Le syndicat a envoyé à l’entreprise portugaise des mises en demeures concernant quatre ouvriers, en exigeant le paiement du salaire dû selon la convention.



Mentioned before that sub (sub sub, etc) contractors are paying Portuguese constructions workers extremely low salaries, in this case in Aclens VD 3.78 CHF per hour- instead of the 25CHF absolute minimum agreed with unions.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:39
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,093
Groaned at 74 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 5,819 Times in 3,043 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Well to be honest I do not see so many but I really liked the last paragraph:

"I think that with the Portuguese, Switzerland has hit the jackpot. It has found people ready to accept the least prestigious and hardest jobs, and behave totally in line with what the Swiss expect in terms of immigration. Switzerland could not function without the Portuguese."

It is nice to hear this about a group of people Good for them!
Actually I was thinking that perhaps there aren't so many in the German part and that is the focus of the article.

I did smile at the last sentence.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:41
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,093
Groaned at 74 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 5,819 Times in 3,043 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Sadly this too: from Le Temps last year:

Le syndicat Unia a bloqué jeudi matin un gros chantier à Aclens (VD). Des ouvriers détachés par une entreprise portugaise recevaient des salaires inférieurs de 80% à la CCT. L’entreprise adjudicataire allemande s’est engagée à les payer au tarif suisse.
Ces travailleurs étaient payés 3,15 euros de l’heure (3,78 francs), à peine un cinquième du salaire minimum prévu par la convention collective (CCT) de la maçonnerie, a dénoncé Unia. Le syndicat a envoyé à l’entreprise portugaise des mises en demeures concernant quatre ouvriers, en exigeant le paiement du salaire dû selon la convention.



Mentioned before that sub (sub sub, etc) contractors are paying Portuguese constructions workers extremely low salaries, in this case in Aclens VD 3.78 CHF per hour- instead of the 25CHF absolute minimum agreed with unions.

How many of the 230K Portuguese do you think that story you quote relates to? And you think it's only the Portuguese this is happening to? Finally, who do you think are profiteering from that type of behavior? Hint: The Swiss.

Last edited by miniMia; 18.12.2012 at 19:16. Reason: typos, again. ugh.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 18.12.2012, 19:04
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 16,745
Groaned at 231 Times in 180 Posts
Thanked 10,164 Times in 5,920 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Well to be honest I do not see so many but I really liked the last paragraph:

"I think that with the Portuguese, Switzerland has hit the jackpot. It has found people ready to accept the least prestigious and hardest jobs, and behave totally in line with what the Swiss expect in terms of immigration. Switzerland could not function without the Portuguese."

It is nice to hear this about a group of people Good for them!
The Portuguese community in Switzerland is generally well liked
as being
- polite and friendly
- co-operative and flexible and liberally minded
- good with languages and well integrating
and NOT loud and NOT trying to dominate
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 18.12.2012, 19:11
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 16,745
Groaned at 231 Times in 180 Posts
Thanked 10,164 Times in 5,920 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Actually I was thinking that perhaps there aren't so many in the German part and that is the focus of the article.

I did smile at the last sentence.
No, there are many in the German speaking part. If that would be the focus of the article, the article would be simply wrong.

As you can see here, for the Canton of Zürich, behind Germany and Italy, together with Serbia, and ahead of all others

331'000 Ausländer im Kanton Zürich

Aktualisiert am 18.10.2011 173 Kommentare


Der Ausländeranteil im Kanton Zürich liegt über dem Schweizer Mittel. Mit rund 76'000 sind die Deutschen am stärksten vertreten. Die meisten Ausländer wohnen in der Stadt.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 18.12.2012, 19:25
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 16,745
Groaned at 231 Times in 180 Posts
Thanked 10,164 Times in 5,920 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
How many of the 230K Portuguese do you think that story you quote relates to? And you think it's only the Portuguese this is happening to? Finally, who do you think are profiteering from that type of behavior? Hint: The Swiss.
The hint is wrong. Wrong for two reasons
A) the profit goes to the Portuguese company who employs their workers in Switzerland, but charges almost normal costs to the Swiss business partners
B) Swiss companies cannot compete as they have to pay normal salaries
C) Swiss employees cannot compete as they have to pay normal costs. And here, under C) you can include the Portuguese living in Switzerland
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 18.12.2012, 19:32
Sbrinz's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Murten - Morat
Posts: 8,059
Groaned at 294 Times in 190 Posts
Thanked 7,043 Times in 3,593 Posts
Sbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond reputeSbrinz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

In the Seeland area the Portuguese are well liked. They work well, and are very well behaved, decent citizens.
Many are employed full time on the vegetable farms and food industry here.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 18.12.2012, 20:45
Pegaso's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Baden
Posts: 147
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 163 Times in 77 Posts
Pegaso has earned the respect of manyPegaso has earned the respect of manyPegaso has earned the respect of many
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Well, it's very nice to see the portuguese worker being appreciated!
And it would be even nicer if the portuguese goverment would do the same...

Quote:
View Post
Interesting article today:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_ne...l?cid=34262848

It would be interesting to see how the portuguese EFers see it
Yeah, so do I, sixth-sense style: I see portuguese people!

Quote:
View Post
What do you want to know?

It's a rather straight forward article. I would dispute that the Portuguese are some how unknown. But maybe we just have a way to recognize each other.

I see Portuguese people every where!
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Pegaso for this useful post:
  #12  
Old 18.12.2012, 21:44
Pegaso's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Baden
Posts: 147
Groaned at 2 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 163 Times in 77 Posts
Pegaso has earned the respect of manyPegaso has earned the respect of manyPegaso has earned the respect of many
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Ok, now for a more serious post...

In my opinion one personality trait that ranks high in the portuguese mentality is to fit in and integrate (not sure if this comes from low self-esteem...). This means that they end up doing how the locals do, so when coming to work in a well-organized and well-paid country like Switzerland they do it well and with pride. Unfortunatelly in badly organized places (like Portugal itself) this also means that the portuguese worker will be disorganized and innefiecient.
In fact if you read the list that Wollishofener wrote in his first post you can almost mistake it for being about the Swiss! (ok maybe except about the flexible part... )

And this desire to integrate is not a recent thing: in the 15th and 16th centuries the Portuguese were great merchants through their expeditions to India across the african coast, instead of being pirates; they were also the first europeans to trade with Japan. Concerning South America, one historian once wrote that while the Spanish waged war, the Portuguese waged humm... "love" . Some say that the greatest contribute from the Portuguese to Humanity is the mulata...

Of course that there are some (very) bad apples, and lately very active in such difficult economy. Like Wollishofener also mentioned, the portuguese worker ends being exploited by other portuguese and not by the locals. This is due to the new arrivals relying heavily on other portuguese people, instead of in the local officials. The worst cases I read about recently are not in Switzerland though, but in the Netherlands and also in England.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Pegaso for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 18.12.2012, 22:28
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,093
Groaned at 74 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 5,819 Times in 3,043 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
The hint is wrong. Wrong for two reasons
A) the profit goes to the Portuguese company who employs their workers in Switzerland, but charges almost normal costs to the Swiss business partners
B) Swiss companies cannot compete as they have to pay normal salaries
C) Swiss employees cannot compete as they have to pay normal costs. And here, under C) you can include the Portuguese living in Switzerland
Sorry, but this is just not so. The Swiss developer starts the whole thing off by sub-contracting to an EU company instead of paying Swiss wages to Swiss people. It then spirals out of control.

And as I said above, this is not just happening with Portuguese workers/companies. The same is happening in IT with Indian companies. Swiss companies pay low 'fees' to Indian companies who then send in Indian workers at very low wages.

The problem starts with the Swiss (or Swiss HQ'd) companies who is avoiding paying Swiss salaries by hiring outsourcing companies.


Quote:
View Post
Yeah, so do I, sixth-sense style: I see portuguese people!
I was thinking exactly that! lol
__________________
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 18.12.2012, 23:21
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 16,745
Groaned at 231 Times in 180 Posts
Thanked 10,164 Times in 5,920 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Sorry, but this is just not so. The Swiss developer starts the whole thing off by sub-contracting to an EU company instead of paying Swiss wages to Swiss people. It then spirals out of control.

And as I said above, this is not just happening with Portuguese workers/companies. The same is happening in IT with Indian companies. Swiss companies pay low 'fees' to Indian companies who then send in Indian workers at very low wages.

The problem starts with the Swiss (or Swiss HQ'd) companies who is avoiding paying Swiss salaries by hiring outsourcing companies.



I was thinking exactly that! lol
Sure, those crooks, and crooks they ARE according to Swiss Federal laws, try to take profits out of what such sub-contractores offer. But again, if those Portuguese or Indian slave-traders pay their people some 30% of salaries in Switzerland (I mean salaries Portuguese people get here ! ) the Swiss construction companies have to pay between 80% and 88%. Indian companies cannot do such things so easily really as India is not in the EU or EFTA. There of course are two noteable exceptions. Mövenpick and EMS-Chemie for decades employed (still DO) "apprentices" from Egypt and India in Switzerland. Those apprentices got what they regarded as excellent and superb wages. Many of them over the years, with the help of Swiss colleagues, got their ways into Switzerland. The trick of the companies you mentioned however is that those "Akkordanten" (working on accord) are only here around for up to four months, and so in the past could not be socially supported. I know what I speak about. Dad was "AHV Revisor" of the Swiss Constructors Union in the 1960ies and 70ies, detected such matters again and again, and alerted people in charge. There now are labour-laws against such crookery, but all laws unfortunately can be circumvented to some extent
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 19.12.2012, 10:02
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,093
Groaned at 74 Times in 66 Posts
Thanked 5,819 Times in 3,043 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
I know what I speak about. Dad was "AHV Revisor" of the Swiss Constructors Union in the 1960ies and 70ies,....
Things have changed quite a lot since then.

Maybe we could take this discussion to the other thread Odile posted about this subject and leave this one for nice comments (ONLY! :P) about Portuguese immigrants.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank miniMia for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 19.12.2012, 10:09
Mélusine's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lutry
Posts: 2,874
Groaned at 21 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 3,368 Times in 1,482 Posts
Mélusine has a reputation beyond reputeMélusine has a reputation beyond reputeMélusine has a reputation beyond reputeMélusine has a reputation beyond reputeMélusine has a reputation beyond reputeMélusine has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

My OH is one of those Portuguese coming to CH to do those under-paid jobs no Swiss want. He's a cleaner in a big cleaning company, working crazy (and mostly illegal) hours for very little money.

But the situation in Portugal is dreary at the moment. The budget cuts are such that many many families are now well below poverty level. There's no jobs for people with a university degree, and Portugal has the lowest rate of kids who finish school without any diploma in all Europe.

Every week, friends from my OH's village call us to say they're coming to CH hoping for a better life. Some of them are attracted by the comparatively much higher wages here, forgetting that the cost of life is much higher too.

Some manage to dig their hole here and live a happy life. Others can't get even a barely decent job, can't get a place to live, and go back to their families.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Mélusine for this useful post:
  #17  
Old 19.12.2012, 13:01
Dack Rambo's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,030
Groaned at 150 Times in 84 Posts
Thanked 1,160 Times in 592 Posts
Dack Rambo has earned some respectDack Rambo has earned some respect
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

More Portugese immigration should benefit the Swiss football team also
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Dack Rambo for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 19.12.2012, 13:25
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Villars-sur-Glâne, FR
Posts: 7,098
Groaned at 92 Times in 78 Posts
Thanked 11,179 Times in 4,042 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
and NOT loud and NOT trying to dominate
Well, at least until they win an important football match
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 19.12.2012, 13:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Near Zug
Posts: 3,565
Groaned at 15 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 1,898 Times in 1,138 Posts
CH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond reputeCH_Me has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Things have changed quite a lot since then.
We were told that Portuguese immigrants were the best foreigners when we arrived - clean, quiet and integrate well. People's perception has changed in the 10 years we have been here.

A friend called the local permit office about her husband's permit and they took one look at his surname and asked "what is the name of the building site?". She was quite peeved at the assumption and said "you mean bank" . Portuguese aren't just doing the cleaning and building jobs anymore

I don't agree that Portuguese immigrants are less qualified. I think, if anything, they are more qualified than previous generations. It could be that their qualifications aren't recognised here or they can't find/compete for jobs because of the language barrier.

The current situation in Portugal has meant hard times for my husband's cousins and Aunts/Uncles that are still there. Those with degrees and experience are now working in different careers that they had to start again in after loosing their job.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank CH_Me for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 19.12.2012, 13:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 14,620
Groaned at 196 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 15,935 Times in 7,083 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: swissinfo.ch: Why Portuguese seek work in Switzerland

Quote:
View Post
Things have changed quite a lot since then.

Maybe we could take this discussion to the other thread Odile posted about this subject and leave this one for nice comments (ONLY! :P) about Portuguese immigrants.
miniMia I can assure you my comment was in no way meant to be unpleasant about Portuguese workers- but pointing out that many, as Gata says, are quite desperate and sadly hugely exploited, by both Swiss and Portuguese employers. We had a similar situation in the UK with many Indian factory owners, especially in the textile trade, vastly exploiting their own - which made it difficult for authorities to act for fear of being accused of racism. This was prevalent in Leicester as the wealthy and experienced ex Ugandan Asians (thrown out by Idi Amin) took over the textile trade in the 70s - and started sweat shops in the town, and also exploiting women and children working at home.

Portuguese people in my area are well integrated and settled, most of them having arrived in the 70s/80s - many of them with their own businesses here. The village near where I live has 2 Portuguese shops for instance, one is a printer, another a foundry, and several restaurant owners.

Last edited by Odile; 19.12.2012 at 19:02.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are the chances of coming to CH and then seek work ? sarahJM Employment 13 15.02.2012 10:18
Portuguese diplomats on strike in Switzerland The Local Swiss news via The Local 0 30.08.2011 15:36
Portuguese Living already 5Months in CH GueZ Introductions 5 12.03.2010 11:26
Why do foreigners decide to come to work in Switzerland? siecom Other/general 61 21.07.2008 16:05


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 22:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0