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  #101  
Old 30.01.2013, 12:20
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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I have never voted for the SVP, and don't plan to ever vote for them. In fact I often have loud arguments with SVP voters (family members / friends) for various reasons, but if you claim that the SVP "advocates outright bans on people living in 'their' country because of their religion or the colour of their skin", that is outright defamation. The official stance is that they want Switzerland to decide who lives in "their" country based on economic needs, democratic decision and citizenship (citizenship is already the case in all EU countries). You can agree with that or not, but calling it "ultra-right wing" is just lunatic. As pointed out before by others, how would being racist (as an organisation) go together with having members of different skin colour?

Are their nutters in the SVP who are "ultra-right" by your definition? Yes, of course. There are also people in the SPS who really want to abolish capitalism, but that's an absolute minority.
first of all, do you honestly not see the difference between wanting to abolish capitalism (or any other economic or political theory) and open and outright racial hatred?



the 3 prongs of the SVP's "vertrag mit dem volk" say nothing about Switzerland whatsoever other than what it should do with people who aren't even Swiss. I don't care one way or the other since I am not Swiss and I don't plan on attending any political rallies while I live here, but there is simply no question that much of the SVP's agenda is at best myopic, and at worst openly racist. sure, there is a part of both parties in the US that are guilty of the same, but this thread isn't about those parties and the fact that there are stupid people living in other countries shouldn't be a defense to the stupid people living in Switzerland.

as for the rest of your post, I offer you the following video:

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  #102  
Old 30.01.2013, 12:21
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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At last, a sensibly-written, well-considered response. I don't agree with you, but I appreciate your reasoning.

To answer a couple of your points, the Nazi party counted Jews, foreigners and people of different skin colour amoung its members prior to 1938. Its candidates were democratically elected in the early years of the party.
I can not completely rule out that there were some Jews involved in the early days of the DAP. Although Drexler was antisemitic, the antisemitism was not the main concern of the party for some time. I find it not very likely, but not completely impossible that Jews were involved back then, but after the renaming and the take over by Hitler this seems highly unlikely. This sounds very adventurous, especially when mentioning any date after 1933. This can almost certainly be ruled out. Do you have any source for this?

Also this is not really the point. The point is that what was not their main concern at the beginning (the "superiority" of the "aryan race"), but a commonly agreed upon world-view within the group, was later becoming one of the core concepts of the Nazi dictatorship. It was a shift of priorities within the common believes, not a transformation.

The SVP does not share those core-believes of the NSDAP. Thus it would not require a shift, but a transformation. And transformations are always possible for everything.

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Please consider my comment about the SVP's desire to ban from Switzerland those who do not conform with the "ideal" in the light of recent, very public SVP campaigns:
  • kick out the black sheep
  • ban new minarets
  • Ivan the (Balkan) rapist
  • no black people in Aargau.
The last one I don't know. But, yes, of course they play with that image. They do it, because they get ridiculous media attention for free for such campaigns. I find them stupid and populist, but I would not over-estimate their importance. In my opinion it is only an attention thing, it allows them to be the agenda-setters.

But the real question is regarding their political agenda. If you look at the initiatives behind those campaigns, do you think they are as racist as the ones from a NSDAP would be? And if not, then what are they waiting for if they are at the core really as dangerous and share the same ideology as the NSDAP? Wouldn't they ban mosques instead of minarets? Wouldn't they propose laws that are really limited to black people instead of black sheeps?

BTW: The "Balkan" was added by you. And that is the brilliancy of these campaigns. Without the "Ivan" it is suddenly "less" xenophobe, isn't it? The campaign only works because of that short word.

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I'm not prepared to believe that none of the above (and other) publically stated positions is "officially" sanctioned by the leadership of the SVP. There's no room for "interpretation" or shades of grey. The SVP's stance is, to coin a phrase, black and white.
I don't agree. First of all those posters are not really "positions", but only slogans and some fancy pictures. And second of all I think that these campaigns are all about shades of gray, that is the only way they work. If their campaigns were outright racists they would lose their voters (there are openly racist parties in Switzerland, people don't want that).
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  #103  
Old 30.01.2013, 12:45
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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first of all, do you honestly not see the difference between wanting to abolish capitalism (or any other economic or political theory) and open and outright racial hatred?

That is not what I wrote and you know it. What I was saying is that the opinion of a minority in a large organisation, does not make up the whole organisation.

If you have a basket with 50 apples and you find 2 apples with a worm in it, it does not make it a basket of worms, does it? (And that does not mean that I think the SPS and a basket of apples are the same!)

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the 3 prongs of the SVP's "vertrag mit dem volk" say nothing about Switzerland whatsoever other than what it should do with people who aren't even Swiss.
For those who don't know it, it says:
  • We don't want to join the EU
  • We want to stop mass immigration
  • We want to evict criminal foreigners
All of them concern Switzerland, actually these points are related to two most controversial topics in Switzerland these days. I don't understand your sentence.

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I don't care one way or the other since I am not Swiss and I don't plan on attending any political rallies while I live here, but there is simply no question that much of the SVP's agenda is at best myopic, and at worst openly racist.
Myopic depends on the political opinion (personally, I agree). Openly racist I don't know (haven't seen anything openly racist from the SVP so far). What are you exactly referring to by that? To avoid misunderstandings, maybe let's agree on a definition of "racist" first. I suggest the definition from wikipedia here, for lack of a better definition:

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Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.
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sure, there is a part of both parties in the US that are guilty of the same, but this thread isn't about those parties and the fact that there are stupid people living in other countries shouldn't be a defense to the stupid people living in Switzerland.
I don't know about the eviction of people that are criminal foreigners in the US, but I think the first 2 points of the "Vertrag mit dem Volk" are pretty well implemented already over there. Personally I think the situation in the US (regarding immigration) is the wet dream of many SVP leaders.

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as for the rest of your post, I offer you the following video:

Maybe it is me, but I don't get what this has to do with my post at all. I would go as far as to say that it is completely unrelated. Care to explain?
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  #104  
Old 30.01.2013, 13:04
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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The last one I don't know. But, yes, of course they play with that image. They do it, because they get ridiculous media attention for free for such campaigns. I find them stupid and populist, but I would not over-estimate their importance. In my opinion it is only an attention thing, it allows them to be the agenda-setters.
And I would not underestimate the danger of these sort of campaigns. It does get them media attention, but what kind of agenda will it result in? It is a very slippery slope.

In the past it was minarets. Years and years of campaigns could start opening the door to banning of mosques. Ultimately it comes to what fraction of the SVP believes in the idea of human rights being inalienable, which IMHO is at the heart of a truly democratic society, direct democracy or not.

Most people on this forum have lived in multiple countries, have seen all kinds of politics. Now put yourself in the mind of a Swiss kid who will be turning 18 soon and has been looking at these sort of posters regularly for the last 6-7 years. Am pretty sure the "geniuses in the SVP" have been doing so.
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  #105  
Old 30.01.2013, 13:13
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

The Swiss are proud of their heritage and successes. They don't mind foreigners as long as they adapt and don't try to overrun the country.

As for racism at the moment, it's due to the asyl-seekers who are visibly hanging around the train stations, bored to death and often become involved with petty crime.

In my area, we have an Asylheim that's known for its petty criminals. Very sad but true.

The old saying of "one bad apple can spoil the whole bunch" is unfortunately true in many a patriot's eye.

And, hey, don't groan me for this. I'm just telling you how the local Swiss see it. It has less to do with the SVP and more on how to keep the quality of life they've worked so hard to strive while keeping an open-mind.
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  #106  
Old 30.01.2013, 13:44
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

Current asylum procedures were set up to deal with the shameful aftermath of WW II. There are many people abusing it.

IMHO Swiss society has two broad tendencies.
1. Continually reform and and adapt the system. The government does try to do this. It is a complicated solution, requiring nuance and attention to details. The SVP usually takes a black/white approach and is rarely part of a solution.

2. Take the view that all immigrants from countries significantly poorer are out to take advantage of Switzerland. Currently the Swiss immigration system is amongst the most heavily regulated in the world, and it is HARD for non-EU people to come here legally. Of course, to an illegal this does not pose any barrier, and neither do the quotas on non-EU permits.
So to solve this, lets not make any distinction between immigrants based on how or why they came here, just focus on where they come from and what they look like, resulting in racism, and pretend we can solve this. The SVP exploits this heavily.

If certain sections of Swiss society choose to stereotype immigrants based on the action of a few, how is it right that the ones who follow all the rules should bear any blame.

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  #107  
Old 30.01.2013, 13:46
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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And I would not underestimate the danger of these sort of campaigns. It does get them media attention, but what kind of agenda will it result in? It is a very slippery slope.
As said, I think these campaigns are as dispensable as something can be, and I think as well that it encourages desensitization, but I don't think that there is any thread on the Swiss state itself by the SVP.

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In the past it was minarets. Years and years of campaigns could start opening the door to banning of mosques. Ultimately it comes to what fraction of the SVP believes in the idea of human rights being inalienable, which IMHO is at the heart of a truly democratic society, direct democracy or not.
I don't think that there will be such a radicalisation, and if, they will lose big parts of the economy-wing of their party and many more. The minaret-thing was really stupid in my opinion (still makes me cringe), but it was rather a symbol than anything else (it does not hinder anybody to follow or express their religion) and it is in my opinion also the only initiative that was really discriminating somebody. The other ones are questionable for other reasons, but in my opinion not discriminating because of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation and so forth.

The human rights have unfortunately become irrelevant a long time ago. None of the powers to be come as far as article 3 with their obedience (death penalty).

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Most people on this forum have lived in multiple countries, have seen all kinds of politics. Now put yourself in the mind of a Swiss kid who will be turning 18 soon and has been looking at these sort of posters regularly for the last 6-7 years. Am pretty sure the "geniuses in the SVP" have been doing so.
There have already been such posters in 2004, so someone who was 11 back then was able to vote in 2011 for the national parliament. And what happened? The SVP lost. We should not underestimate the ability of people to reason. We should also not forget that a child who is turning 18 now had a much better chance to be related/befriended with foreigners than one in any other decade. Thus they are even more able to compare the reality to pictures.

I don't think the SVP will ever radicalise any further. I also don't believe that any more radical group comes to power as long as people are able to live more or less comfortably (that is the real danger and reason for radicalisation, and this could happen not necessarily far away of the borders of Switzerland).

But this is the really brave thing in democracy (even more so if it is direct), isn't it? To trust in the other members of your society and future generations to be able to be just judges.

I, for one, welcome our new, rocking compatriot. May she always judge wisely.
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  #108  
Old 30.01.2013, 14:06
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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I don't think that there will be such a radicalisation, and if, they will lose big parts of the economy-wing of their party and many more. The minaret-thing was really stupid in my opinion (still makes me cringe), but it was rather a symbol than anything else (it does not hinder anybody to follow or express their religion) and it is in my opinion also the only initiative that was really discriminating somebody. The other ones are questionable for other reasons, but in my opinion not discriminating because of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation and so forth.
Even though it was symbolic, it does hinder the way some people want to express their religion. And it comes from something very ugly.

I think dismissing this as something one-time and stupid would be irresponsible and lazy, and leave open the possibility of much worse, because as you recognize, as a result of this initiative passing, an element of discrimination was introduced into the Swiss constitution.
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Old 30.01.2013, 14:06
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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That is not what I wrote and you know it. What I was saying is that the opinion of a minority in a large organisation, does not make up the whole organisation.
it is exactly what you wrote, you were the one who drew a direct comparison between the "nutters" (your word) in the SVP and the fringe in the SPS who want to abolish capitalism.

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If you have a basket with 50 apples and you find 2 apples with a worm in it, it does not make it a basket of worms, does it? (And that does not mean that I think the SPS and a basket of apples are the same!)
if a public billboard is displayed with the official logo of a political party on it, how is that not an endorsement by that political party of the views expressed on the billboard?



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For those who don't know it, it says:
  • We don't want to join the EU
  • We want to stop mass immigration
  • We want to evict criminal foreigners
All of them concern Switzerland, actually these points are related to two most controversial topics in Switzerland these days. I don't understand your sentence.
if you don't see the myopia in the vertrag, I won't be able to point it out to you.

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Myopic depends on the political opinion (personally, I agree). Openly racist I don't know (haven't seen anything openly racist from the SVP so far). What are you exactly referring to by that?
you don't think that the advertising campaigns of the SVP (at least some of them) are openly racist? look, I am sympathetic to the underlying policy issues that the SVP is seemingly trying to address, such as the obvious impact (much of it negative) of Schengen, the problem of how to manage the asylum process, etc. but there is a material distinction between a political campaign that legitimately focuses on the issues of immigration and asylum and a campaign that focus on people of color. I hardly think that every SVP member or voter is racist, since the underlying policies being pushed by the SVP are perfectly legitimate, but there really should not be any debate about whether or not the campaign with the sign in Aargau is racist.

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Maybe it is me, but I don't get what this has to do with my post at all. I would go as far as to say that it is completely unrelated. Care to explain?
having an Indian member doesn't preclude an organization from targeting people of color, any more than having a black friend precludes one from being a racist.

Last edited by 22 yards; 30.01.2013 at 22:40. Reason: Fixed quote formatting
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  #110  
Old 30.01.2013, 14:30
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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Even though it was symbolic, it does hinder the way some people want to express their religion. And it comes from something very ugly.
I agree, I can not see any advantage in this passing, but I really think, and hope, that this was a one-time mistake.

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I think dismissing this as something one-time and stupid would be irresponsible and lazy, and leave open the possibility of much worse, because as you recognize, as a result of this initiative passing, an element of discrimination was introduced into the Swiss constitution.
Well, I certainly hope it was a one-time thing. To be honest, I think this initiative passing scared many people up who underestimated it from the beginning (including me). I thought this would never pass. Sadly, I was wrong. I think the bad mobilisation of voters on the contra-side and the unholy alliance with some feminist groups on the pro-side was resulting in an addition to the constitution we once have to talk about again.
.

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it is exactly what you wrote, you were the one who drew a direct comparison between the "nutters" (your word) in the SVP and the fringe in the SPS who want to abolish capitalism.
Errr...No. I was pointing out another minority in another party to make a point regarding importance within said parties. It was no comparison. To settle this (I hope): If there was a misunderstanding, I am sorry. Maybe the formulation was not completely clear (I am obviously not a native English speaker). What you read as my opinion is not my opinion. I distance myself from this interpretation.

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if a public billboard is displayed with the official logo of a political party on it, how is that not an endorsement by that political party of the views expressed on the billboard?

What billboard?

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if you don't see the myopia in the vertrag, I won't be able to point it out to you.
I was actually agreeing there with you! But still: This is our opinion, others might not agree with it. Please accept that.

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you don't think that the advertising campaigns of the SVP (at least some of them) are openly racist?
You are just asking me what I already answered. Again:

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Myopic depends on the political opinion (personally, I agree). Openly racist I don't know (haven't seen anything openly racist from the SVP so far). What are you exactly referring to by that?
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look, I am sympathetic to the underlying policy issues that the SVP is seemingly trying to address, such as the obvious impact (much of it negative) of Schengen, the problem of how to manage the asylum process, etc. but there is a material distinction between a political campaign that legitimately focuses on the issues of immigration and asylum and a campaign that focus on people of color.
I agree. Again: I don't like the campaigns, but in my opinion they are there to draw attention on SVP initiatives. They play with racist interpretation, but are the underlying initiatives racist?

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I hardly think that every SVP member or voter is racist, since the underlying policies being pushed by the SVP are perfectly legitimate, but there really should not be any debate about whether or not the campaign with the sign in Aargau is racist.
As said before, I do not know any such campaign. Can you please provide a link for it?

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having an Indian member doesn't preclude an organization from targeting people of color, any more than having a black friend precludes one from being a racist.
I am not aware of the SVP ever targeting people of color, but they obviously have such members. If they were that strictly racist and an NSDAP look-a-like , wouldn't they make sure they could not become member?
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  #111  
Old 30.01.2013, 14:51
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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As said before, I do not know any such campaign. Can you please provide a link for it?
we seem to be talking past each other on a lot of this stuff, and I'll certainly take 50% of the blame for that. but you don't think that the "sie sehen schwarz fuer den Aargau" or "Afrika statt Argovia" billboards are racist?

btw, I was not the one who compared the SVP to WWII Germany or anything of the like, since again I am sympathetic to at least some of what the SVP appears to be pushing (although they candidly push it poorly). but there is a fine line between legitimate discussion of immigration and asylum issues and playing upon the ignorance and hatred of certain segments of a culture, and the SVP campaigns in Aargau are not even in the same postal code as that fine line.
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Old 30.01.2013, 14:59
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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Wolli and Cannut's discussions amuse me and bring this film to mind....

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Old 30.01.2013, 15:06
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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Is this you olygirl
somehow I was hoping more Ann Margaret, that pic above looks just like my mother-in-law.
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  #114  
Old 30.01.2013, 15:34
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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we seem to be talking past each other on a lot of this stuff, and I'll certainly take 50% of the blame for that.
I agree, I think there is one or the other misunderstanding here.

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but you don't think that the "sie sehen schwarz fuer den Aargau" or "Afrika statt Argovia" billboards are racist?
You see, I honestly, have not heard of any of these campaigns so far. If it ever came up in this thread I must have missed it. Now I know at least what I have to google for. I will tell you as soon as I have. "Sie sehen schwarz für den Aargau" is on itself not racist at all, as it only means that one thinks nothing good lies ahead for Aargau (as if the present was that pleasing) or so, but I can imagine what they did there . "Afrika statt Argovia" is probably the most blatant I have seen so far when talking about the SVP. I will read into that matter later today.

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btw, I was not the one who compared the SVP to WWII Germany or anything of the like, since again I am sympathetic to at least some of what the SVP appears to be pushing (although they candidly push it poorly).
I know. On one hand I was constantly referring to the NSDAP again, because I think it is very important not to play the role of the NSDAP in history and its crimes down (making some posters with whatever content is still something different from genocide). On the other hand I think it does not help to demonise the SVP. I think concerns of people should be addressed and discussion should not be dropped as long as possible. The members of the SVP I know are perfectly sound democrats, just with view that differs from mine on many subjects. I am aware that there are others, but I can not imagine that is even close to a majority and I prefer to have a big right-wing party that stays within the democratic borders and has a minority of extremists that are under control by the organisation, over a NPD in Germany.

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but there is a fine line between legitimate discussion of immigration and asylum issues and playing upon the ignorance and hatred of certain segments of a culture, and the SVP campaigns in Aargau are not even in the same postal code as that fine line.
I agree for the first part, I have to educate myself regarding the second part first.
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Old 30.01.2013, 16:36
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

Interesting article in TagesAnzeiger today here about how Gemeindes with a high number of SVP voters also had the highest rejection rates for certain nationalities requesting citizenship.

Not sure how this is related to this discussion which seems to have drifted way off topic
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Old 30.01.2013, 16:55
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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Interesting article in TagesAnzeiger today here about how Gemeindes with a high number of SVP voters also had the highest rejection rates for certain nationalities requesting citizenship.
Could that be simply because there are a lot of SVP voters among the rural communities and these communities quite often have more of a public vote to decide whether someone gets citizenship rather than from the applicant meeting a criteria in a more objective way?
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Old 30.01.2013, 17:34
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The article specifically says the integration status, language etc played no role

What mattered was whether it was direct or not, and where direct vote or gemeideversammlung took place the citizenship requests did worse if there was a high proportion if svp voters

Interestingly it was Turks, ex Yugoslavs and to a lesser extent Germans who bore the brunt of it all
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Old 30.01.2013, 22:54
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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we seem to be talking past each other on a lot of this stuff, and I'll certainly take 50% of the blame for that. but you don't think that the "sie sehen schwarz fuer den Aargau" or "Afrika statt Argovia" billboards are racist?
I found the pictures and they seem to be posters created by the SVP section Bremgarten with the slogans:

"Asylmissbrauch: Afrika statt Argovia! Nach Hause schaffen!"

and

"Asylmissbrauch: Sie sehen schwarz für den Aargau? Nach Hause schaffen!"

The slogans themselves I find not racist. They are not concerning any races at all, but refugees who become criminal. The first one I find actually more problematic as it implies that refugees who abuse the system are from Africa (A North Korean refugee would look rather puzzled after being evicted to Africa.).

Together with the picture beside it, however, the text receives an other meaning and that is in my opinion racist. It is once again the old play with double meanings, but this time I find it more extreme (I don't think the national party would have launched that one themselves.). Really nothing to be proud of.
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Old 30.01.2013, 23:00
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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if a public billboard is displayed with the official logo of a political party on it, how is that not an endorsement by that political party of the views expressed on the billboard?

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What billboard?
This billboard.

Yes, you did miss this links in this thread, starting here.

ETA:

Aha. You found it.

By the way, as pointed out by another poster in this thread, note the relatively tiny font size used for "Asylmissbrauch". This is a conscious effort to convey a (racist) meaning through twisting and underplaying words.

Last edited by 22 yards; 31.01.2013 at 01:26. Reason: Tzpo
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Old 30.01.2013, 23:31
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Re: Tina Turner to become Swiss

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This billboard.

Yes, you did miss this links in this thread, starting here.

ETA:

Aha. You found it.

By the way, as pointed out by another poster in this thread, note the relatively tiny font size used ofr "Asylmissbrauch". This is a conscious effort to convey a (racist) meaning through twisting and underplaying words.
The Argovia-Africa billboard simply shows that many SVP people ARE racists and that the SVP as a party still is a danger for the country.

One of the reasons why the SVP acts so much against foreigners getting CH citizenship of course is that the realize that their share among the new CH citizens is lower than among the "native" population. Interesting was to see how in Glattbrugg, an Egyptian family became CH-citizens and Prof A... and his two sons not only joined the Social Democratic party but became very active, and, together with some other "new-Swiss" managed to turn the tide and to break the dominance the SVP had in this place before.

Fredy Heer of course is informed about all this and now possibly moves to a town or village where his party still enjoys dominance, as Kloten is NOT SVP dominated.
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