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  #21  
Old 05.05.2013, 12:38
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

Sounds like our daughter made a smart move with obtaining this Masters Degree.

http://www.geog.ox.ac.uk/graduate/msc-wspm/
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  #22  
Old 05.05.2013, 13:06
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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Mr Brabeck fails to think to the end. At present, Nestle gets its water free of charge. If water is a foodstuff, Nestle will have to pay millions to the Canton of Vaud.

Mr Brabeck fails to think to the end. If "specific measures" are to be taken for the disadvantaged, Nestle and its subsidiaries will have to pay more taxes
I have listened to Brabeck speak on this topic. In a very few words, he feels that if water does not have a price it will continue to be wasted. Many areas of the world have severe water shortage problems - and this situation is growing, lack of water is the most serious threat we face going forward, etc.

His main push is that we must start to treat water as the valuable and scarce resource that it is if we are hoping to not run out of it.

To answer the quote I did above, Nestle already uses a very high hypothetical water value on all of its projects to insure that they make economic sense before they are approved. He is not against charging industrial and agricultural concerns the true cost of water.

His point about putting a price on water needs to be qualified. He says that above the 30 litres per day that we need to live, water should have a value so it is not wasted.

Brakeck is part of an association that helps governments (especially in poorer and arid areas of the world) work on projects to better manage their water resources.

Link: http://www.2030wrg.org/

Another link: www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/davos-water-scarcity-second-important-world-risk♦

Anyhow, some thoughts for the conversation.
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  #23  
Old 05.05.2013, 13:13
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

How about a bad example from the UK.
"United Utilitys" have the selling rights for all of the water in the Lake District.
"United Utilitys" is a private company (a lot of the shareholders live in China) and sells this "tap water" in the north of England. The people of the north have no choice than to buy this water.
The northeners must thank Mrs Thatcher for this, it was she who sold the water rights to this PRIVATE company.

Salut Zämma
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Old 05.05.2013, 13:16
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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Come on FFS, he simply wants to tap into a new market. Where will it stop ??? Will companies be able to purchase mountain tops and claim ownership to rainwater that falls on them.

He claims to be responsible for all his workers and the longevity of his company. A contradiction in terms because capitalisation requires increasing production rates which means automating production lines to the point where people are no longer required.

The point is that capitalisation knows no end. Every resource must be exploited to it's full extent and in the long run us, the 99% will pay in order for the 1% to increase their profits.

Where lies the responsibility to the greater community ???
We seem to have watched different videos...
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Old 05.05.2013, 13:16
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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How about a bad example from the UK.
"United Utilitys" have the selling rights for all of the water in the Lake District.
"United Utilitys" is a private company (a lot of the shareholders live in China) and sells this "tap water" in the north of England. The people of the north have no choice than to buy this water.
The northeners must thank Mrs Thatcher for this, it was she who sold the water rights to this PRIVATE company.

Salut Zämma
No suprise there, what did Mrs T not sell?
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  #26  
Old 05.05.2013, 13:20
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

Is it so hard to make the distinction between the water itself as a product and the service of water distribution? Apparently, yes it is.
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  #27  
Old 06.05.2013, 03:00
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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There are two plots of land upon which people have created farms.

One has a spring bubbling from beneath the ground, which ensures adequate water, enough that there is a small run off, but no means "plentiful". The second is located in a way to be a beneficiary of the run off.

The owner of the land with the spring wishes to dam up the run off in order to artificially create a larger lake from the spring, which will allow him greater capabilities of irrigation of his own land. This change though will take access of water away from the second farmer.


Do you think that farmer 2 has a "right" to the water from the first farmer's spring, without cost?
Or, do you think he has a "right" to have access to the first farmer's water, but must pay a cost because the water is "rightfully" the property of the first farmer?
There was a very good French movie on exactly this topic; wish i could remember the name
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  #28  
Old 06.05.2013, 08:37
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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There was a very good French movie on exactly this topic; wish i could remember the name
Jean de florette/Manon des sources?

Last edited by Phil_MCR; 06.05.2013 at 11:36.
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  #29  
Old 06.05.2013, 08:40
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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Well it is now predicted that future wars are more likely to be about water than oil - what a refreshing change
There's already been a move. The smart money had been buying water assets for the past decade or so.
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  #30  
Old 06.05.2013, 09:00
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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No suprise there, what did Mrs T not sell?

The air that we breathe!
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  #31  
Old 06.05.2013, 09:27
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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DE-salination is the way to go. Malta for example, which for years imported water from Sicily which was horrible, years ago changed to free-of-charge DEsalinated water. If these procedures get improved, millions of hectoliters of ocean-water can be transferred inland, in the Western USA, in desert areeas on the African Continent and elsewhere. The dreams of Messrs Khaddafi and Mubarak to have vast lakes deep inland will come true !
Desalination free of charge

I think you need to do a little reading on the subject. Even solar stills and combined plants are not free.
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  #32  
Old 06.05.2013, 09:28
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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Come on FFS, he simply wants to tap into a new market. Where will it stop ??? Will companies be able to purchase mountain tops and claim ownership to rainwater that falls on them.
Do you know of any companies that have actually done this?

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He claims to be responsible for all his workers and the longevity of his company. A contradiction in terms because capitalisation requires increasing production rates which means automating production lines to the point where people are no longer required.
This is false. There are quite numerous tasks that humans do that cannot be replaced by machines. Some of these roles may never be able to be filled by machines. The counter to this point is that machines replace humans in menial tasks, eventually allowing humans to pursue more meaningful jobs, instead of production-line drudgery. Further, if costs are decreased, this will only help the low-income end consumers.

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The point is that capitalisation knows no end. Every resource must be exploited to it's full extent and in the long run us, the 99% will pay in order for the 1% to increase their profits.
Why would you want to waste resources? Isn't that not environmentally sound? The population of Earth is growing rapidly, requiring that we become more efficient with our resources, so I don't see how you can claim this is a bad thing...

Further, to your tired "99%" whine (sorry, it is tired), you've got that entirely wrong. Do you even know who benefits from corporate profits? Shareholders. Who are the shareholders? Well, most of them come from the "99%," not the "1%"; they are doctors, nurses, firemen, teachers, police officers, etc. who have invested retirement funds into companies like Nestle, directly or indirectly. So, please, don't try to shoot all of us in the foot with that demagogic swill.. I like when my retirement funds increase because the companies I've invested in are profitable; its a good thing.

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Where lies the responsibility to the greater community ???
If Nestle (and other companies like it) are honest actors in the global economic community, then the "greater community" will benefit from the creation of jobs at many levels, the availability of low-cost goods and services, tax revenues to the state, and corporate charity.
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  #33  
Old 06.05.2013, 10:27
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

[QUOTE=Jobsrobertsharpii;1869183]Do you know of any companies that have actually done this?


Yes "United Utilities" in the UK.

SalutZämma
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  #34  
Old 06.05.2013, 11:19
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

If I remember rightly there has been quite a bit of resentment for decades (must go back and do a bit of reading) as water from Wales has been diverted to feed the needs of growing Birmingham. A bit of Googling will give you lots of background info on this long water saga between Wales and the Midlands. Here is a short video showing current resentment:

http://youtu.be/tDdT0t69_Yw

As said, if water from one area (like Southern rural Spain, or Goa) is diverted from agriculture to tourism (Swimming pools, golf courses) - then the effects can be dire. Not only for the farmers and they direct family, but ruining the whole ecology of an area and turning it into a desert.

Yes, made me thing of Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources (books by Pagnol of course a long time before made into [great] films).
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  #35  
Old 06.05.2013, 11:37
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

doesn't water already have a price??

at least i get regular invoices for it...
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Old 06.05.2013, 11:51
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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I have listened to Brabeck speak on this topic. In a very few words, he feels that if water does not have a price it will continue to be wasted. Many areas of the world have severe water shortage problems - and this situation is growing, lack of water is the most serious threat we face going forward, etc.

His main push is that we must start to treat water as the valuable and scarce resource that it is if we are hoping to not run out of it.

To answer the quote I did above, Nestle already uses a very high hypothetical water value on all of its projects to insure that they make economic sense before they are approved. He is not against charging industrial and agricultural concerns the true cost of water.

His point about putting a price on water needs to be qualified. He says that above the 30 litres per day that we need to live, water should have a value so it is not wasted.

Brakeck is part of an association that helps governments (especially in poorer and arid areas of the world) work on projects to better manage their water resources.

Link: http://www.2030wrg.org/

Another link: www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/davos-water-scarcity-second-important-world-risk♦

Anyhow, some thoughts for the conversation.
In principal I agree with this, the real question is what is the margin being made on the sale of bottled water?
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  #37  
Old 06.05.2013, 12:17
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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How about a bad example from the UK.
"United Utilitys" have the selling rights for all of the water in the Lake District.
"United Utilitys" is a private company (a lot of the shareholders live in China) and sells this "tap water" in the north of England. The people of the north have no choice than to buy this water.
The northeners must thank Mrs Thatcher for this, it was she who sold the water rights to this PRIVATE company.

Salut Zämma
I am one of those poor, oppressed northerners labouring under the tyranny of United Utilities and I am so glad I have got bleeding heart foreigner battling on my behalf this major regional employer, provider of essential water and sewage services and staple of many a UK pension fund. It makes me warm and fuzzy inside to know the middle classes have got our back because us humble folk are too stupid to look after ourselves. I mean, we keep paying our water rates and all the water company do in return is extract the water, clean it to the required standard and then pipe it to our homes. Then they take the waste water away and clean that up too. On top of all that, they spend billions making up for the lack of investment during the decades the company was in public ownership.

The cheek!

I for one, in my northern ignorance, would much prefer to walk down to the river and collect the water in buckets. Then pour the waste back into the river for
someone downstream to drink.

Putting a price on water - ridculous! Let's be like the California farmers who can grow rice in a desert because they do not pay the real cost of water. It forces up the price for domestic users and puts rice growers in the tropics out of job but never mind.

As for UU having Chinese shareholders, well, so what? It has an awful lot of British shareholders (most British people via their pension funds in fact), it will also have European ones, American ones, even maybe some African ones. What have you got against the Chinese?
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  #38  
Old 06.05.2013, 12:47
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

[QUOTE=Big Mara;1869224]
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Do you know of any companies that have actually done this?


Yes "United Utilities" in the UK.

SalutZämma
Didn't know UU was atop a mountain, but that's semantics.

If you want to position it that way, then this implies what ALL utilities do- collect, treat, and distribute water. Never mind it costs money to capture the water, store the water, treat the water, pipe the water... Never mind that the people doing all of this have families at home and bills to pay, and expect to get paid themselves. Never mind that if you're a farmer or a shopkeeper in the area, these people working for the utility might be your very own customers that pay YOU for your goods and services. Never mind that privatizing the utility forced it to operate profitably and freed up government funds (that would've been used to prop up the inefficient public utility) for some other use (or hell, maybe cut the taxes and let people keep a bit more of their money for once...).
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Old 06.05.2013, 13:14
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

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I just shake my head in shame.

What is the world coming to ? Where do people get off ? Have they no conscience ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=nTqvBhFVdvE


The title of your thread is misleading. I think what Brabeck is essentially reinforcing is that water is indeed a right. It is a fact. It can be legally owned. Water Laws have been around for ages. So what is actually being discussed? Whether or not they should be confiscated from rightful owners?
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Old 06.05.2013, 13:55
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Re: Nestlè boss declares water is not a given right

We all agree that water treatment and services have to be paid for. However, in my book you can't just go and dig deep wells and divert for commercial purpose, what has been a free ressource for centuries and on which the whole agriculture and local businesses are dependent on - leaving the locals without water for personal use, without a means to earn a living based on centuries of historical use (Goa hinterland and southern Spain just 2 of 1000s of examples) - causing ecological desertification, trees, forest and local species dying (palm oil?).
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