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  #81  
Old 18.12.2013, 22:40
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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In Swiss News (SRF) they said that one of the factor why Switzerland did so well was because of the many foreigners with an academic background are here, i.e. children with parents who are from academic background tend to do better....so
parents with an academic background usually have zero or only one child
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  #82  
Old 18.12.2013, 22:53
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Your quoted text is German. In some parts of Switzerland it is perfectly possible to speak no German at all and be fully integrated as the official language is not German. You can find more information here.
Well, this is probably one of the most futile statements you can make towards a Swiss person. However, would you have had clicked on the given link I mentioned, you would have been able to recognize that the same text is also available in French and Italian - how surprising! And I was definitely not keen on to translate the whole text into English, assuming that you will anyhow be able to read one of the three languages. ;-) So why should I then not copy-and-paste the German one without knowing what you actually can understand? This is just standhard habit here in Switzerland

But for your convenience, let me repeat it in French here, if this is your problem you try to claim:
"Afin de garantir la comparabilité des performances scolaires entre les différents pays, il est essentiel de définir des populations cibles comparables. En raison des différentes structures des systèmes d’éducation dans les pays participants, les populations cibles ne peuvent pas être définies par un degré scolaire particulier. Néanmoins, pour permettre des comparaisons valides entre les pays, les populations seront définies par l’âge des participants. PISA choisit comme population cible les élèves qui ont entre 15 ans 3 mois et 16 ans 2 mois au moment du sondage. A la base du choix de ce groupe d’âge, les performances scolaires des élèves peu avant la fin de leur scolarité obligatoire peuvent être mesurées au niveau international et au cours du temps.
L’enquête 2012 en Suisse va prendre en considération les élèves nés en 1996 et provenant des institutions scolaires suivantes:
    • écoles du degré secondaire I de la 7e, 8e, 9e et 10e année;
    • écoles du degré secondaire II comme les gymnases et les écoles de degré diplôme;
    • écoles professionnelles du degré secondaire II."

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"Der Ton macht die Musik"
Actually, this saying is originally French and is usually being cited in French even in German Switzerland: "C'est le ton qui fait la musique"
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  #83  
Old 18.12.2013, 22:58
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Your quoted text is German. In some parts of Switzerland it is perfectly possible to speak no German at all and be fully integrated as the official language is not German.
You can well go ahead without any knowledge of German in the Cantons of Geneva, Vaud, Neuchâtel, Jura and Ticino plus in the French speaking parts of Fribourg/Freiburg and Valais/Wallis. BUT German is majority language in Switzerland and THE official language in the Cantons of Basel (both), Solothurn, Bern (exception the Jurassic part), Aargau, Luzern, Uri, Schwyz, Unterwalden, Zug, Zürich, Schaffhausen, Thurgau, St. Gallen, Appenzell (both), and Glarus. Yes, in Graubünden, the official languages are German, Romansh and Italian (Mesolcina, Bregaglia, Poschiavo)
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  #84  
Old 19.12.2013, 04:41
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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You see, Swiss universities do NOT instruct their students how to breed
Breeding is the simple part. Parenting is the part that requires instruction since having more than one child either requires skill and patience or lunacy.

And Switzerland is relatively well off in terms of population and labor force. The entire EU is in for a shock if something isn't done soon since the ponzi scheme that is retirement cannot be shored up at the cost of education for the young and other services for less fortunate segments of the population. It's going to require higher retirement ages and, at the very least, policies that make it easier and more attractive for women to have children and work at the same time.

I think the population decline is largely driven by economics since, back in the 50s, you could have a one income family. Now you have dual income families where the woman still winds up doing most of the housework and child care. What sane woman rushes into something like that? And in Switzerland, possibly other countries, the hurdles a working woman faces just to get childcare, etc. are daunting at best. And you can't simply backfill the hole in the EU by importing a whole bunch of immigrants that nobody wants and who are marginalized in a myriad of ways due to limited or poorly implemented integration policies.
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Old 19.12.2013, 10:17
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

Here are the conclusions (from page 9) of the Swiss Teacher's Union. Sorry just in German. http://www.lch.ch/publikationen/bild...ument/12_2013/
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  #86  
Old 19.12.2013, 12:18
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Explains some of the arrogance I have experienced in Switzerland

Ultimately it is not only the education or number of degrees and abbreviations beside one's name that counts, but what one actually does with it in the end...and what one "gives back"
It's not our fault we're better than you lot.

Me and many of my fellow graduates are indeed conquering the world, I for one am teaching the Chinese capitalism, does that count as giving back?
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Old 19.12.2013, 12:25
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Oh sure, Switzerland had and has to import masons, carpenters, taxi-drivers, train-drivers, cleaners, shop-cashiers

Switzerland, just as some other European countries is hit by the demographic problem, which means that the "babyboomers" generation born between 1945 and 1960 is gradually fading away into retirement, and the people of the post-1960-born anti-baby-pills generation is simply not as numerous and so unable to replace the retirees.

You may have a look at Italy. Problems in Italy ? Maybe, but the number of children in Italy has receded so much that the Italian industry is waiting for illegal immigrants which generally rather swiftly get legalized

Add to this, that many highly qualified Swiss emigrate in order to go ahead with the career or/and simply to enjoy the world. Switzerland in the past three or four centuries has heavily profited from returnees and still does. Many get their education here back home, then go to act abroad, and much later return.

You see, Swiss universities do NOT instruct their students how to breed
I have the impression that the import of qualified people tends to be on both ends. For example, from the ETH statistics (they're old, from 2006), 10% of bachelors students are international and 13% of masters students . However, 54% of PhD students are international and 61% of the professors. Why aren't there more Swiss students who are pursuing a PhD? If they're all going abroad for their studies, why aren't they being hired back as professors?

We have our own theories (which may or may not be relevant) in the lunch room, but it is a real phenomenon.

Based on the complaints in the news, this doesn't seem to be strictly an academic issue, but I don't have the statistics to back this up.

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parents with an academic background usually have zero or only one child
WHOOPS!
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Old 19.12.2013, 12:39
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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It's not our fault we're better than you lot.

Me and many of my fellow graduates are indeed conquering the world, I for one am teaching the Chinese capitalism, does that count as giving back?
Oh simon_ch, I was so enjoying your contributions until this one!
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Old 19.12.2013, 18:27
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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I have the impression that the import of qualified people tends to be on both ends. For example, from the ETH statistics (they're old, from 2006), 10% of bachelors students are international and 13% of masters students . However, 54% of PhD students are international and 61% of the professors. Why aren't there more Swiss students who are pursuing a PhD? If they're all going abroad for their studies, why aren't they being hired back as professors?

We have our own theories (which may or may not be relevant) in the lunch room, but it is a real phenomenon.

Based on the complaints in the news, this doesn't seem to be strictly an academic issue, but I don't have the statistics to back this up.



WHOOPS!
Hmm, you pretend to be a scientist, or at least an academic, but I thoroughly start to doubt it seriously given your repeated sometimes simply wrong and badly researched statements. I really start to wonder if there is actually intention behind your repeated pointing to seemingly negatively preselected figures. But even your figures from 2006 are not even exact.

Namely, on one of the major pages on the ETHZ site, namely "The ETH Zurich - Portrait", you can super-easily find current figures (2012), and they look like the following:

https://www.ethz.ch/en/the-eth-zuric...20figures.html

Students (17'781 in total), percentage of foreign students (newly entered in 2012 / in total):

- Bachelor (2549 / 8137): 18.8% / 19.4%
- Master (1919 / 4702): 38.5% / 37.9%
- Guests (535 / 384): 97.9% / 98.2%
- PhD (939 / 3795): 70.8% / 66.7%
- MAS/MBA (309 / 763): 50.2% / 38.7%
- Total: 40.1% / 36.9%

Professors (482): 76%

Personnel (7662): 53%


And one thing you tend to totally neglect is that the high costs of such a world-wide highly reputable University is being mainly paid by the Swiss tax payers, besides the almost neglectable tuition of shamefully only CHF 1160 compared to extreme tuition costs of US$ 42'000 (three quarts) to US$ 61'000 (four quarters) for example in Stanford! .. So in other words, foreign students are financed by Swiss tax payers with about CHF 20-40'000 per year.


But again, I now very thoroughly doubt that you have the slightest idea what research/academic qualities actually are.
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  #90  
Old 19.12.2013, 19:08
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Why aren't there more Swiss students who are pursuing a PhD? If they're all going abroad for their studies, why aren't they being hired back as professors?

We have our own theories (which may or may not be relevant) in the lunch room, but it is a real phenomenon.
Real, and easily explained. All the major Swiss universities have a deliberate culture of not hiring their own graduates. The version you will hear offered for public consumption is that "we are proud to be able to attract the best and brightest from all over the world, not only from Switzerland."

The plain fact is that hiring too many of one's own graduates - as professors, I'm not saying as PhD students - eventually kills research as departments become academically inbred.
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Old 19.12.2013, 19:30
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

There are various funds from SNF supporting employing these people actually. For example they pay postdoc for 2-3 years abroad with intention of coming back to Switzerland.

As to why more foreigners do PhDs. Some reasons: 1) people come to ETH with intention to pursue PhD, 2) it is sometimes easier to continue with a PhD than find a job (or work permit), partially because many PhDs don't speak very good German/French/.., 3) it attracts PhDs from worldwide - PhD salary is one of the best in the World
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Old 19.12.2013, 20:41
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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parents with an academic background usually have zero or only one child
where did you get that?
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Old 19.12.2013, 21:38
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Well, this is probably one of the most futile statements you can make towards a Swiss person. However, would you have had clicked on the given link I mentioned, you would have been able to recognize that the same text is also available in French and Italian - how surprising! And I was definitely not keen on to translate the whole text into English, assuming that you will anyhow be able to read one of the three languages. ;-) So why should I then not copy-and-paste the German one without knowing what you actually can understand? This is just standhard habit here in Switzerland
I saw that it is available in other languages and I obviously knew that you know about the official languages of Switzerland. My statement was rather an, apparently, too subtle hint that lack of comprehension or integration was not the reason why these numbers did not appear in this thread in the same way as you posting only the German version had nothing to do with you not understanding the culture of Switzerland.

To put it into simpler words: The accusation of being not integrated or having less than optimal language knowledge was unnecessary, insulting and an illogical explanation of why this information did not show up in this thread.

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Actually, this saying is originally French and is usually being cited in French even in German Switzerland: "C'est le ton qui fait la musique"
It has been around for so long in German, it is very well integrated now
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Old 20.12.2013, 00:37
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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where did you get that?
It is well documented in dozens of statistics and is fairly obious
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Old 20.12.2013, 01:01
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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It is well documented in dozens of statistics and is fairly obious
not sure... in my experience, there are many (especially female) who do not get married at all and usually don't have children. but most of those around me who are/were married (both older and new generations) have 2+ children...
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Old 20.12.2013, 12:35
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

Dear Husky,

Thanks for digging up more recent numbers, which clearly show the same trend as the numbers from previous years. It's nice to see that we agree on the main point-the higher the student level, the higher percentage of foreigners.

I'm not sure what the fact that Swiss tax payers are paying for education has to do with anything, and remember that a good percentage of those taxpayers aren't Swiss.

Stanford, by the way, is a private institution, and you'd be better off comparing to an American university that is also taxpayer funded, like one of the UC schools. Fees are higher in that case as well, but the tuition there, around $13,000, wouldn't have given you that shock value you're looking for.

Also, you may be surprised to hear that, after the undergrad level (which is the bachelor level here) students don't pay tuition in the US, at least in the sciences (and, of course, medical school is a notable exception). They're actually paid a stipend, similar to the situation here, and the money for their education also comes from taxpayers (though in this case, that would be US taxpayers).

Cheers,
your favourite pretend scientist

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Hmm, you pretend to be a scientist, or at least an academic, but I thoroughly start to doubt it seriously given your repeated sometimes simply wrong and badly researched statements. I really start to wonder if there is actually intention behind your repeated pointing to seemingly negatively preselected figures. But even your figures from 2006 are not even exact.

Namely, on one of the major pages on the ETHZ site, namely "The ETH Zurich - Portrait", you can super-easily find current figures (2012), and they look like the following:

https://www.ethz.ch/en/the-eth-zuric...20figures.html

Students (17'781 in total), percentage of foreign students (newly entered in 2012 / in total):

- Bachelor (2549 / 8137): 18.8% / 19.4%
- Master (1919 / 4702): 38.5% / 37.9%
- Guests (535 / 384): 97.9% / 98.2%
- PhD (939 / 3795): 70.8% / 66.7%
- MAS/MBA (309 / 763): 50.2% / 38.7%
- Total: 40.1% / 36.9%

Professors (482): 76%

Personnel (7662): 53%


And one thing you tend to totally neglect is that the high costs of such a world-wide highly reputable University is being mainly paid by the Swiss tax payers, besides the almost neglectable tuition of shamefully only CHF 1160 compared to extreme tuition costs of US$ 42'000 (three quarts) to US$ 61'000 (four quarters) for example in Stanford! .. So in other words, foreign students are financed by Swiss tax payers with about CHF 20-40'000 per year.


But again, I now very thoroughly doubt that you have the slightest idea what research/academic qualities actually are.
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Old 20.12.2013, 13:44
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Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Dear Husky,

Thanks for digging up more recent numbers, which clearly show the same trend as the numbers from previous years. It's nice to see that we agree on the main point-the higher the student level, the higher percentage of foreigners.

I'm not sure what the fact that Swiss tax payers are paying for education has to do with anything, and remember that a good percentage of those taxpayers aren't Swiss.

Stanford, by the way, is a private institution, and you'd be better off comparing to an American university that is also taxpayer funded, like one of the UC schools. Fees are higher in that case as well, but the tuition there, around $13,000, wouldn't have given you that shock value you're looking for.

Also, you may be surprised to hear that, after the undergrad level (which is the bachelor level here) students don't pay tuition in the US, at least in the sciences (and, of course, medical school is a notable exception). They're actually paid a stipend, similar to the situation here, and the money for their education also comes from taxpayers (though in this case, that would be US taxpayers).

Cheers,
your favourite pretend scientist
Comparisons would be u of michigan, penn state, ohio state and university of virginia, maybe north carolina - larger state institutions that are partly funded by the individual states, although uc, michigan and virginia have increased tution ahead of the others, and some argue that's the way to go. In these states, if you are a state resident you get a tuition break.

You're partly right - professional studies students - medicine, law, business (MBA) mostly pay their own way, although there are grants, public service, military programs (mostly for medicine). Academic departments in sciences, social science, humanities often have some sort of grant/teaching stipend for graduate studies.
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Old 20.12.2013, 14:46
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Comparisons would be u of michigan, penn state, ohio state and university of virginia, maybe north carolina - larger state institutions that are partly funded by the individual states, although uc, michigan and virginia have increased tution ahead of the others, and some argue that's the way to go. In these states, if you are a state resident you get a tuition break.

You're partly right - professional studies students - medicine, law, business (MBA) mostly pay their own way, although there are grants, public service, military programs (mostly for medicine). Academic departments in sciences, social science, humanities often have some sort of grant/teaching stipend for graduate studies.
I did specify that I was limiting this comparison to the sciences (because, at least in my experience, humanities majors don't get PhD stipends in many places, but they're also far smaller programs than the science PhDs). Of course, JD and MBA also aren't science degrees. We could have a good discussion about the economics of those (and MD) programs, by the way...

Also, state residency requirements are generally only one year, so students who arrive from out of state can establish residency during their first year and pay lower rates afterwards. The UC school I picked was Cal, and the tuition price was for California residents. If we assume that California taxpayers are subsidising the out of state tuition portion, that's an additional $23,000 per undergraduate student per year. Apologies that it wasn't more clear!
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Old 20.12.2013, 18:08
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Dear Husky,

Thanks for digging up more recent numbers, which clearly show the same trend as the numbers from previous years. It's nice to see that we agree on the main point-the higher the student level, the higher percentage of foreigners.
No, we definitely do not.

Did you take into consideration that this could have another reason than just your prejudiced view of how exploiting the Swiss are? In psychology we use to call it transference : http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cb...ychoanalyse%29 (I am sorry but the German description is simply better and more comprehensive) … please tell us a bit about your childhood/background …

Well, at least the difference between the figures of 2006 and 2012 should have given you a strong indication, given you would be a scientist, otherwise you are not worth the money spent for your education … if there is any, at all.

Namely, ETHZ is growing since years and by intention.

So please consider this:

2006 vs. 2012:

No. of Professors: 359 vs. 482 (445 FTE) --> +25%
2011, from EU and Switzerland: ~63%
from USA, UK, CA: 31%
Of course, these are competitive and professionally paid positions.

No. of PhD students: 2794 vs. 3807 --> +36%
2012, from EU (1695) and Switzerland (1268): 78%
(and BTW: from US: 1.52%)

Growing of students since 2000: +66%

So what is your conclusion? Well, mine is:

1. If you want to "inorganically" grow you have to find resources somewhere else, of course, from foreign countries, Switzerland is just to small to fullfil the requirements (in a short time frame).
2. And from where? Well, mainly from countries, which also contribute to your overall educational expenses and vice versa, as for example the EU, given by commonly shared treaties between Switzerland and the EU, so that both parties can profit from it.

And finally, ETHZ also developed the idea to become a European University than just only a Swiss one. And the above figures reflects this intention and implementation, obviously.


Got it?

Just a hint for you: If you still want to follow the search of your self-fulfilling prophecies/prejudices then start to think like Switzerland/EU vice versa the rest aka USA, it probably helps ;-)

What was your argument again????
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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It has been around for so long in German, it is very well integrated now

Well, integration does not equalize assimilation ... in Switzerland we obviously never had this idea, otherwise there would not (still) exist this strong understanding of the support and power to minorities ... even though I must fearfully admit, this is losing ground ... but mainly "thanks" to the strong influence of globalizing powers
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