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  #101  
Old 20.12.2013, 20:37
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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Well, integration does not equalize assimilation ...
... unless one is Jenisch, of course.
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  #102  
Old 20.12.2013, 22:53
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

This was exactly my point-that Switzerland needs to import talent at the top end of the scale. Actually, my exact words were: "I have the impression that the import of qualified people tends to be on both ends."

If the reason is that there haven't been enough PhD students that have "made it through the pipeline," then that's a valid explanation. Also, MathNut's explanation is a reasonable one, though I didn't see any data to back that up (and PhD's don't generally do their postdocs in the same institute, partially to prevent the inbreeding problem).

I still don't understand what all the anger is about, though.

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So what is your conclusion? Well, mine is:

1. If you want to "inorganically" grow you have to find resources somewhere else, of course, from foreign countries, Switzerland is just to small to fullfil the requirements (in a short time frame).
2. And from where? Well, mainly from countries, which also contribute to your overall educational expenses and vice versa, as for example the EU, given by commonly shared treaties between Switzerland and the EU, so that both parties can profit from it.

And finally, ETHZ also developed the idea to become a European University than just only a Swiss one. And the above figures reflects this intention and implementation, obviously.
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  #103  
Old 21.12.2013, 00:27
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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I still don't understand what all the anger is about, though.
They are rapidly taking the world over and you (?) are questioning their system. That...
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  #104  
Old 21.12.2013, 00:53
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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I have the impression that the import of qualified people tends to be on both ends. For example, from the ETH statistics (they're old, from 2006), 10% of bachelors students are international and 13% of masters students . However, 54% of PhD students are international and 61% of the professors. Why aren't there more Swiss students who are pursuing a PhD? If they're all going abroad for their studies, why aren't they being hired back as professors?

We have our own theories (which may or may not be relevant) in the lunch room, but it is a real phenomenon.

Based on the complaints in the news, this doesn't seem to be strictly an academic issue, but I don't have the statistics to back this up.



WHOOPS!
People who were never born cannot become students.

Returnees tend to be at least 70 years old

THIS is an international and longterm thing, that academics have no children
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  #105  
Old 21.12.2013, 10:19
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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People who were never born cannot become students.

Returnees tend to be at least 70 years old

THIS is an international and longterm thing, that academics have no children
I hope you're not implying that only the children of academics can become PhD students or professors. Do you mean the overall number of Swiss students?

Anyway, it's not an international thing that academics have no children.

Certainly the trend for the US isn't that academics have "no children," though the overall trend is a slight increase in remaining without children In fact, female PhD and professional degree holders are more likely to have children now than they were a decade ago:

Looking at the cohort of US women ages 40-44:
In 1992-1994, 34% with a professional degree/PhD had no children. As of 2006-2008, that had dropped to 23%.

What is true is that the fertility rate across all groups in the developed world is dropping. This, as has been discussed many times in this forum, has profound economic consequences for Switzerland and every other country that's experiencing this change.

Source:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...t=nytimes&_r=0
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  #106  
Old 21.12.2013, 18:25
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

A side comment: some ETH professors got Swiss citizenship since being employed at ETH, hence although not from Switzerland, they would count as such in the above listed statistics.
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  #107  
Old 22.12.2013, 07:10
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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# A
I hope you're not implying that only the children of academics can become PhD students or professors. Do you mean the overall number of Swiss students?
-
Also children of "normal" people can and do become students and professors, even children of dull people

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# B
Anyway, it's not an international thing that academics have no children.
-
it is

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# C
Certainly the trend for the US isn't that academics have "no children," though the overall trend is a slight increase in remaining without children In fact, female PhD and professional degree holders are more likely to have children now than they were a decade ago:
-
I never said that the USA is in the world

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# D
Looking at the cohort of US women ages 40-44:
In 2006-2008, 34% with a professional degree/PhD had no children. As of 2006-2008, that had dropped to 23%.
-
your argument only becomes relevant if you can provide statistics for the same of 1870 to 1910

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# E
What is true is that the fertility rate across all groups in the developed world is dropping. This, as has been discussed many times in this forum, has profound economic consequences for Switzerland and every other country that's experiencing this change.
-
Indeed. Also Mr Giezendanner, a SVP-member of relevance, but also a business tycoon in the transport sector, clearly states that Switzerland as most "north-of-the-alps-West-European" countries needs to import people in quite some way
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  #108  
Old 22.02.2014, 00:33
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

Swiss-in-Training (and any others to whom this may apply)

There is a journalist from Le Temps looking for comments from foreigners living here post-anti-immigrant vote. Specifically he would like to hear from anybody who feels their situation in Switzerland is now under threat. I'm not implying I think you are necessarily under threat, but it might be nice for him to get some well-expressed, insightful comments from Academia. FYI.

Dejan.Nikolic@letemps.ch
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  #109  
Old 22.02.2014, 14:22
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

Thanks!
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  #110  
Old 05.03.2014, 15:16
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

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As in each 3-year period, they tested 15-year-old school pupils performance in reading, science and mathematics. This time the main focus for was mathematics.
Each of these tests need to be in an open format so that such results can be properly tested / retried. For all the talk of science and maths, I have a nagging feeling that these tests are not accurate.
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  #111  
Old 08.06.2015, 12:50
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Re: Switzerland in top 10 in 2012 PISA survey (mathematics)

It appears that it's PISA test time again. They carry them out every three years apparently.
Our son has been 'randomly' chosen to take this test in maths and will be doing it tomorrow morning.
It will be very interesting to hear what it actually involves ( if he can remember it) and see the results when they're released in December.
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