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  #261  
Old 26.02.2014, 23:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I don't know -I just quoted the newspaper report which says "H2020 and Erasmus together have a 95Billion Euro budget."

I assume this is the budget for the whole project?
This EU official site puts the H2020 budget alone at circa 80Billion euros
http://www.eutrainingsite.com/2014-2020.php?id=106

How much each project will get is open to negotiation?
Yes, so, for a Flagship, which is a super big project, a consortia can get max 1 billion.

95 billion is the whole Horizon 2020, for the whole EU.
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  #262  
Old 26.02.2014, 23:44
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not sure I understand this concept of in/out.

Switzerland loses both in and out.
You are outdated. Switzerland LOST in the afternoon of the voting Sunday. Since then the country is working on "Schadenbegrenzung" and compromise and way-outs. The outcome is to be accepted and so alternative routes are to be found and to be implemented
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  #263  
Old 26.02.2014, 23:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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In that case, the Swiss universities have to find other partners in the world. Possibly just capture a manageable part of an existing program and tear it out
Contiguity has its usefulness, taking a flight to MACAO is 12 hours plus jet lag. Look, an EU project is already difficult enough without complications... imagine a world wide project...

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If the rules are making it impossible, get other partners and it becomes possible

That is Italian thinking .


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and even if it is the best fellowships, if no longer accessible, replacements are to be found --- and WILL BE FOUND
??? There is one EU. US are not happy with Switzerland. China is a superpower.... a comunist one though. Japan would require us to work 25 hours per day.

Australia is cool, yo I have been trying to convince my wife to leave for Australia, but no way...

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again, if too large, capture parts and tear those part out of the total. And again, find other partners.
You are trying to be very pragmatic and I appreciate that, but there is also the issue of competencies. Don't think there are so many people around working on certain subjects.

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This hints to Switzerland only having been absolutely insignifant in this regard.- But to try to get interesting parts out of the schemes and bring it into new partnerships will be worth the efforts.

India and China would supply the SCIENTISTS
Austria would supply the diplomats
Switzerland would supply infrastructure and financing
Liechtenstein would supply the financial HQs
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all five would profit, while I freely admit that the PRC and FL are slightly different in size
In short, it is a tantamount and costly effort that you propose.
Although, it is nice that you are positive, I have to admit.


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Statements like "not possible" "scale" "against the rules" to me are surrenderisms. People like Alfred von Escher refused to accept such "arguments". Had they accepted such surrenderisms, Switzerland would still be the place it was by 1750

People like Guillaume Henri Dufour, Hans Herzog, Henri Guisan and Friedrich Traugott Wahlen rejected "Defaitism" but made all the required compromises, exactly in times of crisis and distress
I never surrender. Unless the job is impossible, then I use my efforts for something else.

The best thing to do would be to rescale down all the projects to stay within the national grasp, lose visibility, but keep alive.

At a certain stage things would be renegotiated and will go better.

But then, I wonder, how long would it get for UDC to try further scaremonger techniques to make things difficult again.

The final problem, for us researchers, is to do research really.
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  #264  
Old 26.02.2014, 23:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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This 90 billion figure is intriguing, .
I think we are talking about two different things and confusing the H2020 budget and Erasmus budgets with the HBP budget; the H2020 budget is about 80 times the current HBP budget.

The interesting question is "Is HBP the only H2020 project likely to bring funds into Switzerland?"

I get the impression that Swiss people are working on other project proposals but maybe I am wrong - I often am!
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  #265  
Old 26.02.2014, 23:52
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, so, for a Flagship, which is a super big project, a consortia can get max 1 billion.

95 billion is the whole Horizon 2020, for the whole EU.
Thanks, then the question is "is HBP the only H2020 project bringing funds into Switzerland?"
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  #266  
Old 27.02.2014, 00:01
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Thanks, then the question is "is HBP the only H2020 project bringing funds into Switzerland?"

No, no, we can write projects as Third countries for H2020. We are not completely cut out.

I am currently writing 2.

Our scope is limited at the moment and it is not great to go from associated to third country.

There is quite a loss, but this is an opinion, from the perspective of the acceptance rate.

In a certain sense, we represent a risk for a consortium.
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  #267  
Old 27.02.2014, 00:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Contiguity has its usefulness, taking a flight to MACAO is 12 hours plus jet lag. Look, an EU project is already difficult enough without complications... imagine a world wide project...
-
Switzerland is now forced into difficult but interesting programs. And the links to East Asia here at Zürich Airport became of top importance more than 20 years ago. A lot of business depends on world wide co-operation. I think that what is possible for quite normal people also is possible for the academics



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That is Italian thinking .
Italian thinking ? Italian thinking brought about
- modern banking
- modern architecture
- good cuisine
- good road construction
- good painting methods
- good theatre & opera



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??? There is one EU. US are not happy with Switzerland. China is a superpower.... a comunist one though. Japan would require us to work 25 hours per day.
China has a communist leadership in theory but a capitalist economy in reality.

The USA in spite of some minor problems IS very happy with Switzerland. The US-CH co-operation is very close.

The Japanese do NOT work 24 hours per day, but clearly less than 9 hours per day. I was closely involved in the co-operation airfreight-wise with Kintetsu for two decades and know the difference between Japanese rethorics and Japanese realities.

I always preferred co-operation with Chinese folks over the one with the Japanese folks as the Chinese are helpful and tolerant and ready for compromise

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Australia is cool, yo I have been trying to convince my wife to leave for Australia, but no way...
-
Never been to Australia myself but a good friend of the 70ies lives in Australia since about 1976 and is here at least once per year


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You are trying to be very pragmatic and I appreciate that, but there is also the issue of competencies. Don't think there are so many people around working on certain subjects.
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I expect people also to have some flexibility



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In short, it is a tantamount and costly effort that you propose.
Although, it is nice that you are positive, I have to admit.
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YES, the outcome of the initiative costs lots of money


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I never surrender. Unless the job is impossible, then I use my efforts for something else.
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Many of those leaders I mentioned could NOT use their efforst for ANYthing else

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The best thing to do would be to rescale down all the projects to stay within the national grasp, lose visibility, but keep alive.
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sure, whatever projects are taken over from this side have to be scaled down and be brought under control

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At a certain stage things would be renegotiated and will go better.
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The proposals are prepared now

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But then, I wonder, how long would it get for UDC to try further scaremonger techniques to make things difficult again.
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They will of course never stop. BUT please bear in mind that they, in spite of some ugly and spectacular successes LOST a majority of votes.

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The final problem, for us researchers, is to do research really.
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I am sorry but to have it with Lord Nelson I expect that everybody does his duty

************************************************


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Please send me a link to the financials that support this statement.
Strangely according to the newspapers today the academics involved are saying it is a big issue and they will need extra "tax" money to fund plan "B".
Sure, the universities have to shift whole programs to not yet proven ones. Specialists are to be sent to alternative universities. Clear is that all this costs a lot. I frankly spoken do not know really what the "plan B" is but it clearly is along the lines I outlined above. THIS is what I meant with costs above.

For me as a total layman who three weeks ago had ZERO knowledge about this topic, it is surprising to learn that the universities of Oxford and Cambridge are with the Coimbra program.
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  #268  
Old 27.02.2014, 00:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Switzerland is now forced into difficult but interesting programs. And the links to East Asia here at Zürich Airport became of top importance more than 20 years ago. A lot of business depends on world wide co-operation. I think that what is possible for quite normal people also is possible for the academics
We are not superman, we have families. We need to find a solution that is reasonable, or no solution at all.

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Italian thinking ? Italian thinking brought about
- modern banking
- modern architecture
- good cuisine
- good road construction
- good painting methods
- good theatre & opera
I meant it positively, I am Italian .

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China has a communist leadership in theory but a capitalist economy in reality.

The USA in spite of some minor problems IS very happy with Switzerland. The US-CH co-operation is very close.

The Japanese do NOT work 24 hours per day, but clearly less than 9 hours per day. I was closely involved in the co-operation airfreight-wise with Kintetsu for two decades and know the difference between Japanese rethorics and Japanese realities.

I always preferred co-operation with Chinese folks over the one with the Japanese folks as the Chinese are helpful and tolerant and ready for compromise
The problem is only going there, the folks are nice I agree. The issue is really just being in a place in which you have to pay attention to what you say.

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Never been to Australia myself but a good friend of the 70ies lives in Australia since about 1976 and is here at least once per year
Never been myself either...

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I expect people also to have some flexibility
We are trying, believe me.


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YES, the outcome of the initiative costs lots of money



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Many of those leaders I mentioned could NOT use their efforst for ANYthing else


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sure, whatever projects are taken over from this side have to be scaled down and be brought under control


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The proposals are prepared now


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They will of course never stop. BUT please bear in mind that they, in spite of some ugly and spectacular successes LOST a majority of votes.


-
I am sorry but to have it with Lord Nelson I expect that everybody does his duty

************************************************




Sure, the universities have to shift whole programs to not yet proven ones. Specialists are to be sent to alternative universities. Clear is that all this costs a lot. I frankly spoken do not know really what the "plan B" is but it clearly is along the lines I outlined above. THIS is what I meant with costs above.

For me as a total layman who three weeks ago had ZERO knowledge about this topic, it is surprising to learn that the universities of Oxford and Cambridge are with the Coimbra program.

Universities have a tendency of having people in that do not have a clear cut nationality idea, that is why whatever is the political situation, we try ways to collaborate.

So, to answer to you, we will do our best to make things happen despite political situation. Only, things are rendered extremely complicated, when before where really easy and smooth and that is not very interesting.

This from the perspective of an average guy working in Uni. I suspect that to be the same for most of the academics in Switzerland, with no distinction wrt nationality.
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  #269  
Old 27.02.2014, 00:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "And what if the Canton of Zürich takes over ?" Sure, they just put their 90Billion euro budget in the pot; do the diplomatic negotiations to ensure the existing researchers from all countries stay involved.....
Persuade the EU to allow this approach...
The EU cannot be persuaded. But clear is that the Cantons of Zürich, BaselStadt and Geneva will HAVE TO take over a lot of things. The finances of the three universities will be stretched to the uttermost. Zürich and Lausanne are lucky in so far as their technical universities (ETH + Polytéchnique) are a federal matter so that the union will have to take over a lot.
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  #270  
Old 27.02.2014, 01:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

If the Swiss economy suffers at the same time as the UK economy recovers, you could expect the £ to strengthen further against the CHF.
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  #271  
Old 27.02.2014, 01:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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--
I meant it positively, I am Italian .
---
--
hähähä it sounded the other way round


---

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The problem is only going there, the folks are nice I agree. The issue is really just being in a place in which you have to pay attention to what you say.
----------------
This was the case in
Spain under Generalisimo Francisco Franco del Bahamonde
Mauritania under almost all rulerships
Algeria in the times of Houari Boumediène and Liamine Zeroual
Tunisia under Habib bn Ali Bourguiba and under Abidine Ben Ali
Syria under Hafez al-Assad
Yemen under General Ahmed Hassan el-Ghashmi
Hungary under Mr Kadar



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We are trying, believe me.
-----
I do .......................



--

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So, to answer to you, we will do our best to make things happen despite political situation. Only, things are rendered extremely complicated, when before where really easy and smooth and that is not very interesting.
This from the perspective of an average guy working in Uni. I suspect that to be the same for most of the academics in Switzerland, with no distinction wrt nationality.
[/QUOTE]
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Yes, THIS exactly is my demand, nothing less and nothing more. Sure, the situation is lousy, actually far more so than I expected.
--
"Before, ... really easy and smooth" reminds me of an uncle and his Catalan wife Lena. They had married in Barcelona and were happy there until the army of Franco approached. The couple managed to get onto the last ship to Marseille. Lena became a real Schaffhauserin and spoke Schaffuuserisch as anybody can do. It was Lena who told Mum about her last meeting in hospital were both were to die of cancer. When both deplored not to be able to see the changes ahead. Lena was not to see a democratic Spain again. ----- I remember holidays in Mallorca-Spain in July 68, when the country was still under the reign of the Generalismo. It only was in 2000 in Barcelona when I could see a democratic Spain.
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  #272  
Old 27.02.2014, 02:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The EU cannot be persuaded. But clear is that the Cantons of Zürich, BaselStadt and Geneva will HAVE TO take over a lot of things. The finances of the three universities will be stretched to the uttermost. Zürich and Lausanne are lucky in so far as their technical universities (ETH + Polytéchnique) are a federal matter so that the union will have to take over a lot.
Already we see possibility for higher taxes after only a few weeks and maybe fewer foreigners contributing to the tax base.

The problem for researchers is that to advance in their career they need to work in leading edge and prestigious institutions so if things get complex they have a big temptation to move on.
As with everything the level of prestige is a matter of perception, not reality, which just adds to the complexity. For a practical example if you are a technical leader in Switzerland are you more or less likely to be invited to contribute to major European events? I mean versus an "European"!
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  #273  
Old 27.02.2014, 03:00
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95 Billion Euro in Lausanne... man there would be people riding cosmic beams while playing an hukulele at EPFL if that was the case .

Maybe you meant 95 milion euros?
According to the EPFL, it would be between 80million and 100million per year.

Remember that Lausanne is involved in many EU projects. The same applies to Zurich.

The swiss contribution to Erasmus and H2020 was much, much less than this.
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  #274  
Old 27.02.2014, 08:45
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Already we see possibility for higher taxes after only a few weeks and maybe fewer foreigners contributing to the tax base.

The problem for researchers is that to advance in their career they need to work in leading edge and prestigious institutions so if things get complex they have a big temptation to move on.
As with everything the level of prestige is a matter of perception, not reality, which just adds to the complexity. For a practical example if you are a technical leader in Switzerland are you more or less likely to be invited to contribute to major European events? I mean versus an "European"!
There will NOT be fewer foreigners. Even the Blocherites speak about stabilisation and "controlled" immigration and limits to additional immigration. And thousands of CH nationals will be recruited to work as officials to administrate the quotas and the whole rubbish. The economy will press for immigration

Second question. YES, Swiss technical leaders will be invited to every Hundsverlochete (Dog Burial) as people all over Europe are interested to hear them
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  #275  
Old 27.02.2014, 08:50
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According to the EPFL, it would be between 80million and 100million per year.

Remember that Lausanne is involved in many EU projects. The same applies to Zurich.

The swiss contribution to Erasmus and H2020 was much, much less than this.
Up to this moment, only Erasmus and H2020 were killed by the EU leaders. The universities of Zürich, Lausanne and Geneva have enough backing among the people for investment, and the Cantons in question are better off than 3 or 4 years ago

I will find out a bit more about students exchange programs as I feel the info at hand for laymen not to be good
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  #276  
Old 27.02.2014, 09:21
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Up to this moment, only Erasmus and H2020 were killed by the EU leaders. The universities of Zürich, Lausanne and Geneva have enough backing among the people for investment, and the Cantons in question are better off than 3 or 4 years ago
The funding issue is being heavily discussed in my department and is an especially big issue for the junior faculty members. There is talk of the federal government finding the money for their research projects, but it certainly isn't a done deal yet...

One side effect is that hiring will become more difficult-many junior faculty positions are difficult to fill (because they're not tenure tracked and limited in itime) and the increased difficulty in funding will make it even harder for the ETH to bring in people that they want-people who are nearly always foreign.
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  #277  
Old 27.02.2014, 09:27
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The funding issue is being heavily discussed in my department and is an especially big issue for the junior faculty members. There is talk of the federal government finding the money for their research projects, but it certainly isn't a done deal yet...

One side effect is that hiring will become more difficult-many junior faculty positions are difficult to fill (because they're not tenure tracked and limited in itime) and the increased difficulty in funding will make it even harder for the ETH to bring in people that they want-people who are nearly always foreign.

To say it clearly, you most likely understand 100 times more about the subject, of which I 3 weeks ago did not even know that there might be a problem. BUT please forget the union, which is bound by a 50,3% majority vote. Concentrate on the Cantons of Zürich and Basel-Stadt and Vaud and Geneve. Talk with the colleagues in Basel and on the Lake of Geneva. And bear in mind that the 4 cantons ZH BS VD GE are the Cantons with resources.
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  #278  
Old 27.02.2014, 10:24
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According to the EPFL, it would be between 80million and 100million per year.

Remember that Lausanne is involved in many EU projects. The same applies to Zurich.

The swiss contribution to Erasmus and H2020 was much, much less than this.
Hi


Just to be clear


About "According to the EPFL, it would be between 80million and 100million per year." - this is just the HBP project, correct?


As you write "Lausanne is involved in many EU projects" - the funding for these is additional to the "between 80million and 100million per year" mentioned, correct?


Reading back through this I was a bit curt


I would very much appreciate your informed comments, thanks in advance

Last edited by marton; 27.02.2014 at 10:30. Reason: added politeness
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  #279  
Old 27.02.2014, 10:32
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To say it clearly, you most likely understand 100 times more about the subject, of which I 3 weeks ago did not even know that there might be a problem. BUT please forget the union, which is bound by a 50,3% majority vote. Concentrate on the Cantons of Zürich and Basel-Stadt and Vaud and Geneve. Talk with the colleagues in Basel and on the Lake of Geneva. And bear in mind that the 4 cantons ZH BS VD GE are the Cantons with resources.
Not sure if it's an issue with translation or if you're really that angry, but my point was simply that there are repercussions that are being felt and that it hasn't been solved. Is that really so controversial?
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Old 27.02.2014, 10:32
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There will NOT be fewer foreigners. Even the Blocherites speak about stabilisation and "controlled" immigration and limits to additional immigration. And thousands of CH nationals will be recruited to work as officials to administrate the quotas and the whole rubbish. The economy will press for immigration

Second question. YES, Swiss technical leaders will be invited to every Hundsverlochete (Dog Burial) as people all over Europe are interested to hear them

About "There will NOT be fewer foreigners" - we all hope so, but some people like Credit Suisse were forecasting an economy contraction of circa 80,000 jobs; of course, this might not be correct.
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