Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #301  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
You misunderstand me - I was saying that from the Swiss side it was not about discriminating against the Croats.

Except it is. At this moment in time, the Croatians do not enjoy FMOP with Switzerland. Everyone else in the EU does.


Am I missing something!? Who is saying that Switzerland would be pressing to exclude Croatia from anything in the long term!?
The agreement could not be signed - this does not mean that no agreement will ever be signed with Croatia allowing them to join their EU partners in immigrating to Switzerland - it just means that right now, at this present time, the agreement could not be signed in the way it was written and due to the change in the Swiss Constitution!

As soon as quota laws are put into place I don't think it will be an issue for us to extend immigration to Croatia.
Switzerland previously agreed to sign it now. They didnt do what they said they were going to do, and consequently cant enjoy the benefits that signing said agreement would have brought. Its as simple as that.
Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:12
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
They could have said to the swiss that since they had already agreed, they had to sign.
If by "They" you mean the Federal Government ... then no, they could not have said that! "Agreeing" is not the same as "signing" ...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #303  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:16
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Except Switzerland hasnt abided by the contract. Thats the whole point.

By implementing quotas, Switzerland is breaking the contract.
As far as the FMOP agreement is concerned Switzerland has not done anything to break that contract! (Read it!!)

Furthermore as of yet Switzerland has NOT "implemented" and "quotas" - the FMOP in it's form previous to Feb 9 is still in FULL effect!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #304  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:20
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Switzerland previously agreed to sign it now. They didnt do what they said they were going to do, and consequently cant enjoy the benefits that signing said agreement would have brought. Its as simple as that.
Due to a democratically decided Constitutional change! What are you moaning about!? At least in one European country the people trump everything!!

Are you really that sad for the Croats!? Do you really think that this agreement would have been the spearhead to launch Croatia into a future of economic bliss!? Or are you just pissed off that the Swiss people are not trudging the EU rut and that they have the brass to chart their own course!?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #305  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:21
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Well then it's the EU's fault for agreeing to something they would not hold themselves to! Article 18 of the FMOP agreement gives either party the right to call for revision - which means renegotiation must take place!

I think EU politicians are spouting a lot of hot air - except for those who are being level-headed, like Merkel - they will come to the table to talk ... they already are!

And 3 years is a good amount of time - the Federal Government is looking to have a law drafted already by the end of this year!!
Wrong. The EU agreed to negotiate...ie, come to the table, but thats it. It is up to Switzerland to put something on the table that the EU will agree with. Switzerland offering x and the EU saying 'no, we want y' is negotiating. If switzerland cannot offer y, the EU has no contractual obligation to continue.
The EU fulfils its end of the deal, but Switzerland does not get the compromise it wants.

The problem for switzerland is that calling the EU to the table is a hollow victory. Since the decision to terminate will come from the EU (The swiss will not sink themselves), Switzerland will, in essence, have to offer them something big to persuade them not to terminate (if they want to keep the quotas).

Any and all such negotiations will need to take place and be completed before any law here is passed. Thats why the law is being drafted quickly, because even the swiss government expects negotiatinos to be long, slow, and painful.

If you are depending on Merkel to come through for you, then you are in a worse state than you realise. Merkel will not counter the EU, when she has been the driving force behind it in Greece/SPain/Portugal/Irelands case. To do so would be political russian roulette, and would damage Germany's standing in the EU considerably.
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Geneva
Posts: 418
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 247 Times in 145 Posts
MajorGrubert is considered knowledgeableMajorGrubert is considered knowledgeableMajorGrubert is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
I found it strange that the Swiss would discriminate against Croatia at this stage. Why not include Croatia and then deal with the quota issue for all EU countries together? They unnecessarily brought forward the issue without having taken the time to begin any discussions.
The Croatia protocol counts as a new treaty, and no international treaties may be signed in contradiction with the new constitutional text (Art. 121a, 4).
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank MajorGrubert for this useful post:
  #307  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:25
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Due to a democratically decided Constitutional change! What are you moaning about!? At least in one European country the people trump everything!!

Are you really that sad for the Croats!? Do you really think that this agreement would have been the spearhead to launch Croatia into a future of economic bliss!? Or are you just pissed off that the Swiss people are not trudging the EU rut and that they have the brass to chart their own course!?

The EU dont care that it was a deomcratic change. They dont need to either, and i dont blame them. They only care what Switzerland as a country does. And Switzerland, as a country, is reneging on its agreements.

Im not particularly sad for the croats, no. I think it was stupid on Switzerlands behalf though, since they gave the EU an excuse to start making Switzerland look like the bad guy. The whole move played into the hands of those wanting to punish Switzerland because now they can say 'Look, Switzerland is already contravening EU Agreeements, they have to be punished' and it makes Switzerland, in they eyes of the important people of the EU, seem like theyre giving the EU the middle finger.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #308  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:27
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The Croatia protocol counts as a new treaty, and no international treaties may be signed in contradiction with the new constitutional text (Art. 121a, 4).
Could they not have made clear that the agreement was already made, under the preivous constitution?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
This user groans at J2488 for this post:
  #309  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:29
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
As far as the FMOP agreement is concerned Switzerland has not done anything to break that contract! (Read it!!)

Furthermore as of yet Switzerland has NOT "implemented" and "quotas" - the FMOP in it's form previous to Feb 9 is still in FULL effect!
I have read it.

Switzerland has not yet done anything to break the contracts, and thats the only reason there hasnt been more of a reaction from the EU.

But Switzerland has, publicly and loudly, stated its intention to break the contract, which in political circles, is just as bad.
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:41
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Wrong. The EU agreed to negotiate...ie, come to the table, but thats it. It is up to Switzerland to put something on the table that the EU will agree with.
What are you whining about? This is precisely what is already in motion!
The EU has to also live with the fact that they cannot change the Swiss constitution - and if they cannot negotiate around that fact then savvy - the Bilateral 1 package will be off the table!

But I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose - that's rubbish - and if that were truly the case then the EU would have cut the Bilateral 1 package from Monday morning on!! - But they didn't ... instead they do a lot of ranting and raving -- kinda like you

Quote:
Any and all such negotiations will need to take place and be completed
True, but even without the FMOP agreement Switzerland could still say to all EU nationals that they are free to come to Switzerland to work and live in the same way as if the FMOP was in effect - just with the Swiss law regarding quotas ... not like we would be the only country in the world with national control of our immigration policies ... But yes, it would be a shame for both the EU and Switzerland to have to walk away from the Bilateral 1 package.
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:43
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The EU dont care that it was a deomcratic change.
Well THAT is certainly true!!

Quote:
And Switzerland, as a country, is reneging on its agreements.
Once again - no we are not!
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:45
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
I have read it.

But Switzerland has, publicly and loudly, stated its intention to break the contract, which in political circles, is just as bad.
Uhm ... so!? That is not breaking the contract - that is saying that we as a nation have come to the conclusion that the agreements must be renegotiated - as is our right!

So what!? - Shame on Switzerland for "publicly and loudly" saying it!? HA!!
Reply With Quote
  #313  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:47
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
What are you whining about? This is precisely what is already in motion!
The EU has to also live with the fact that they cannot change the Swiss constitution - and if they cannot negotiate around that fact then savvy - the Bilateral 1 package will be off the table!

But I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose - that's rubbish - and if that were truly the case then the EU would have cut the Bilateral 1 package from Monday morning on!! - But they didn't ... instead they do a lot of ranting and raving -- kinda like you



True, but even without the FMOP agreement Switzerland could still say to all EU nationals that they are free to come to Switzerland to work and live in the same way as if the FMOP was in effect - just with the Swiss law regarding quotas ... not like we would be the only country in the world with national control of our immigration policies ... But yes, it would be a shame for both the EU and Switzerland to have to walk away from the Bilateral 1 package.
Wrong on both counts.
The EU stand to lose far less than Switzerland. The reason they haven't done more so far is, as i have already said, they will wait to see what Switzerland will offer before making a counter offer. Its Negotiating 101.


Regarding your point about Quotas being compatible with FMOP, im not sure you understand what FMOP means. if there are quotas, then it means the FMOP is only free, to an extent and that means it is not completely free. Thus, quotas are contradictory to, and incompatible with, FMOP.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #314  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:48
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,363
Groaned at 368 Times in 275 Posts
Thanked 22,372 Times in 10,066 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

No fan of Cohn-Bendit- but as he says (ranted actually) On ne peut pas avoir le beurre, et l'argent du beurre... (you can't have your cake and eat it...).

The stand being made is to make it clear to all EU countries, and perhaps especially the UK- that you can't be part of the EU, and pick and choose- and renegotiate everything unilaterally to suit.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #315  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:51
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Well THAT is certainly true!!



Once again - no we are not!
Yes, Switzerland is.

Quote:
View Post
Uhm ... so!? That is not breaking the contract - that is saying that we as a nation have come to the conclusion that the agreements must be renegotiated - as is our right!

So what!? - Shame on Switzerland for "publicly and loudly" saying it!? HA!!
Except you havent 'just' done that. You have changed your constitution, without the consent or agreement of the other party affected. It has gone from being compatible with FMOP to being incompatible with FMOP. Had there been no real change, and Switzerland went to the EU with that request without a referendum and consequent constitution change, what you say would be correct.

But Switzerland didnt, so it isnt.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at J2488 for this post:
  #316  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:55
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Wrong on both counts.
The EU stand to lose far less than Switzerland. The reason they haven't done more so far is, as i have already said, they will wait to see what Switzerland will offer before making a counter offer. Its Negotiating 101.


Regarding your point about Quotas being compatible with FMOP, im not sure you understand what FMOP means. if there are quotas, then it means the FMOP is only free, to an extent and that means it is not completely free. Thus, quotas are contradictory to, and incompatible with, FMOP.
I never said that the EU has more to loose than Switzerland - I said that "I disagree with your overall attitude that the EU has nothing to loose". The EU have something to loose - that's my point!

The reason the EU has "not done more so far" is because Switzerland has not broken any agreements.

And Lichtenstein, which also has FMOP, has permanent quotas for all EEA members - so how is it "not compatible"!?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #317  
Old 27.02.2014, 12:56
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
No fan of Cohn-Bendit- but as he says (ranted actually) On ne peut pas avoir le beurre, et l'argent du beurre... (you can't have your cake and eat it...).

The stand being made is to make it clear to all EU countries, and perhaps especially the UK- that you can't be part of the EU, and pick and choose- and renegotiate everything unilaterally to suit.

But we are not an EU country.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank EAB for this useful post:
  #318  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:11
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Valais
Posts: 305
Groaned at 57 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 259 Times in 130 Posts
SteAlka has earned the respect of manySteAlka has earned the respect of manySteAlka has earned the respect of many
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
But we are not an EU country.
You are an associated one, with a lot of bilateral agreements.
As a matter of fact, you were in, although not completely.

That brought many advantages to research.

Well, the easy period has ended I am afraid.
Reply With Quote
  #319  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:15
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,481
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,335 Times in 5,680 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The Croatia protocol counts as a new treaty, and no international treaties may be signed in contradiction with the new constitutional text (Art. 121a, 4).
That makes sense. It is then a failure in political tactics to have not done it prior to the change in the constitution coming into force.

Incidentally, what is the process for changes in the constitution coming into force as a result of a popular referendum?
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old 27.02.2014, 13:28
EAB EAB is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Bern, Switzerland
Posts: 479
Groaned at 118 Times in 49 Posts
Thanked 403 Times in 194 Posts
EAB has made some interesting contributions
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post

Incidentally, what is the process for changes in the constitution coming into force as a result of a popular referendum?

See bottom of page: http://swisspsi.ch/?page_id=24
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Immigration status of Non-EU starting a business in Switzerland alesco Business & entrepreneur 28 09.11.2015 14:26
Masseneinwanderung [Immigration] vote - Facts Slaphead Swiss politics/news 4 29.06.2014 19:59
Is there any age limits to starting a PhD? Breezy Family matters/health 15 18.11.2012 01:23
Immigration limits in the UK: what about scientists? HashBrown International affairs/politics 5 08.10.2010 00:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0