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  #21  
Old 18.02.2014, 20:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Me thinks that people's comfort zone has been compromised.

That the shiny club membership card might be scrutinized for renewal.
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Old 18.02.2014, 20:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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This free movement of goods, people and services: all I see is that it is easier for people to move in / out of Switzerland. The other stuff, example I buy something in Germany, I still pay extra tax on it. Yes, yes I can claim the VAT back in Germany, but sorting that rigmarol ends up costing more than my time is worth. And one still pays the post for them having a look inside when it is clearly marked on the box what is in it.

Also what is it with the Swiss UPS sending drivers out on COD with no float? I mean WTF? That is seriously dense.
What you are referring to is a customs union, which is not the same thing. The free movement of goods and services from commercial point of view is what it refers to.

For example the local machine factory in my town sell their machines all over the EU, they don't need any special licence or clearance to do so. They can send their technicians to work for long periods on the installations, training and so on with out any need for work or business permits and of course they can compete for EU and EU State contracts on the same basis as their EU competitors. That is what we are talking about.

As I've said before the main firms in my town are highly dependent on the EU for their market. If they are not able to compete on the same level as their competitors they will have problem in the future, especially if on top of that they have to deal with the high Franc.
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  #23  
Old 18.02.2014, 20:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Relax!

Switzerland needs the EU and the EU needs Switzerland... both will have to find a compromise, we just have to wait and see.
Honestly, I really don't think EU needs Switzerland. It's just too small. For sure, the lack of a common EU-Switzerland market will have negative consequences inside EU, I really don't this this consequences will be too catastrophic. On the other hand, more the 50% of Swiss imports/exports involve EU countries.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...2C+France++GDP
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  #24  
Old 18.02.2014, 20:45
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That's life. Every decision has its negative and positive sides. For me the threats of the EU simply show how little understanding they have of democracy as we practice it.
We entered into an agreement with the EU and now have unilaterally decided to break it, how we arrived at that decision is not the concern of the EU. All they care is that the agreement has been broken and consequently they have no obligation to continue it, why should we expect them to do so if we don't?
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Old 18.02.2014, 20:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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GB £ is up on the Swiss franc over the last year; makes my pension look healthier in CHF.
If the Swiss economy does suffer then should be even better for the GB £?
The GBP is getting strong as the markets believe the UK is out of recession before Europe, if you remember the GBP went from 1.80 - 2.60 last time so 2.00 must be within easy reach this time
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  #26  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Relax!

Switzerland needs the EU and the EU needs Switzerland... both will have to find a compromise, we just have to wait and see.
Wishful thinking I fear! Look at all the internal issues that the EU having coming up in the next few years, even if they wanted they just don't have the resources to spar on us! Further integration of Euroland, new member negotiations, possible UK renegotiation of membership, possible Scottish independence, trade talks with the US, bilateral agreements with Cuba and so on.

And then there is the whole decision making process, back in the day of many of our agreements, all that was needed was the agreement of the EU council of ministers. Now such agreements needs the agreement of the Commission, the Council and the Parliament to start. The parliament is an elected body and like all other politicians the are mindful of being reelected, so don't expect then to agree to anything that will be to the disadvantage of the citizens. And then there is the fact that Bulgaria, Romania and so on have a right to veto any new agreements and you can see how difficult it is going to be.
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  #27  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:12
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Good Cop, Bad cop

http://www.dw.de/merkel-calls-on-eu-...ion/a-17440424

The Vote was very close, For either side to claim and our right victory seems a bit much. It was a huge win for the SVP, but in all reality it will be over turned in the near future in " true democracy style" with a cleverly worded referendum. But in the mean time there will be a bit of pain dished out and possibly a healthy cooling off of a bubbly economy.
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Old 18.02.2014, 21:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I am no expert to conclude who needs who more, politics is more about what goes behind the scenes more than what we (public) see.

Now I recall the USA-Switzerland issue that occurred couple of years ago, where Switzerland had to eventually "compromise" and do a "limited give away" of its historical banking secrecy, so again we will have to wait and see...maybe it is not as bad as it seems right now.
In dealing with the US we were dealing with a single government, in this case we are going to have to get 28 nations, their elected parliament and possibly some national referenda to go our way if we are to get a new deal out of the EU... If we get anything other than an offer of membership, I expect it will cost us an absolute fortune in contributions to the EU structural funds. Remember we are already contributing to the EU funds.
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  #29  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:22
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Good Cop, Bad cop

http://www.dw.de/merkel-calls-on-eu-...ion/a-17440424

The Vote was very close, For either side to claim and our right victory seems a bit much. It was a huge win for the SVP, but in all reality it will be over turned in the near future in " true democracy style" with a cleverly worded referendum. But in the mean time there will be a bit of pain dished out and possibly a healthy cooling off of a bubbly economy.
I wonder why we cannot have another referendum to reverse the last disaster? Is there a law that a vote cannot be overruled by a second referendum?
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  #30  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:32
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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In dealing with the US we were dealing with a single government, in this case we are going to have to get 28 nations, their elected parliament and possibly some national referenda to go our way if we are to get a new deal out of the EU... If we get anything other than an offer of membership, I expect it will cost us an absolute fortune in contributions to the EU structural funds. Remember we are already contributing to the EU funds.
Also, keep in mind with the US you were starting negotiations at zero. With the EU, you'll be negotiating with people who are already peeved at you.
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  #31  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Notice how ironic it is that Horizon2020 & Erasmus+ cancelling affect the Cantons and towns that voted NO...
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  #32  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I think the sitting down of the insightful minds is exactly what has been frozen.

The EU didnt give them time because they dont have time - Universities are already applying for large chunks of that money, and final contracts need to be signed in 7 months. Thats not that long.

Simply put, this was the first item that required cooperation between CH and EU, and with the vote, that cooperation has become a lot more difficult. Over the next few months, this will happen again and again with other things, as they come up for discussion. Its just chronological.

I guess you could say that this is one instance when the slow direct democracy system does not work in Switzerlands favour.
Sure, but as the Uni-Dozent I mentioned, outlined, the universities here don't have time to wait for the EU to give time to the Swiss Federal government. They all with their cities and the Cantons of Zürich and Basel-Stadt voted against the Initiative, but how the EU acts leaves them no choice than to look elsewhere

Some people in the USA may appreciate the chance to get a foothold right in the heart of Europe. Then some EUers may complain about this but will be told that THEY forced the pro-EU-Europeans in Switzerland to do so.

What they do is punishing exactly those who are, or at least were, pro EU. But there are many universities in North America, Australia, Japan, China and India who may love to co-operate with people here. People who were forced to find solutions NOW.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 18.02.2014 at 23:17.
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  #33  
Old 18.02.2014, 21:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Old 18.02.2014, 22:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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We entered into an agreement with the EU and now have unilaterally decided to break it, how we arrived at that decision is not the concern of the EU. All they care is that the agreement has been broken and consequently they have no obligation to continue it, why should we expect them to do so if we don't?
No, this is wrong. People in the rural cantons have told cities like Bern, Biel, Solothurn, Luzern and Cantons like Zürich and BaselStadt that they do not have the support of the national majority. Now, solutions have to be found now, and the solutions apparently are outside the EU. Russia may see its chance. Russia, under Czar Alexander II, back in 1815 bailed Switzerland out in Vienna. And now may be a valuable partner for Switzerland. By "we" you refer to the whole confederation, but "we" in the real sense of federalist Switzerland means something else.
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  #35  
Old 18.02.2014, 22:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, this is wrong. People in the rural cantons have told cities like Bern, Biel, Solothurn, Luzern and Cantons like Zürich and BaselStadt that they do not have the support of the national majority. Now, solutions have to be found now, and the solutions apparently are outside the EU. Russia may see its chance. Russia, under Czar Alexander II, back in 1815 bailed Switzerland out in Vienna. And now may be a valuable partner for Switzerland. By "we" you refer to the whole confederation, but "we" in the real sense of federalist Switzerland means something else.
Would Switzerland really prefer Russia as its main partner, rather than the EU?

Keep in mind, trade would still need to go through the EU...
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  #36  
Old 18.02.2014, 22:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, this is wrong. People in the rural cantons have told cities like Bern, Biel, Solothurn, Luzern and Cantons like Zürich and BaselStadt that they do not have the support of the national majority. Now, solutions have to be found now, and the solutions apparently are outside the EU. Russia may see its chance. Russia, under Czar Alexander II, back in 1815 bailed Switzerland out in Vienna. And now may be a valuable partner for Switzerland. By "we" you refer to the whole confederation, but "we" in the real sense of federalist Switzerland means something else.
Any solution will be complicated by the fact that Switzerland is completely surrounded by the EU.

Two of the "bilateral 1 agreements" are Civil aviation 1999 and Overland transport 1999; if the EU were to put a cap on the number of boats, planes, trucks and trains travelling over their territory to and from Switzerland then life could get interesting.
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Old 18.02.2014, 22:14
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I think they should have combined it with the vote for Scottish Independence. The UK is now making a song and dance about whether or not Scotland will keep the "poond" as its currency.

Personally I think an independent Scotland should adopt the Swiss Franc and in return become a canton of Switzerland. The Swiss would finally get a coast where they can sail Alinghi, the Scots would get a stable currency. A Saltire with a red background wouldn't look too bad either.

And all those Swiss lovers of all things Scottish wouldn't have to pay duty on Single Malt imports.

What's not to like?

Cheers,
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  #38  
Old 18.02.2014, 22:25
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sure, but as the Uni-Dozent I mentioned, outlined, the universities here don't have time to wait for the EU to give time to the Swiss Federal government. They all with their cities and the Cantons of Zürich and Basel-Stadt voted against the Initiative, but how the EU acts leaves them no choice than to look elsewhere

Some people in the USA may appreciate the chance to get a foothold right in the heart of Europe. Then some EUers may complain about this but will be told that THEY forced to pro-EU-Europeans in Switzerland to do so.

What they do is punishing exactly those who are, or at least were, pro EU. But there are many universities in North America, Australia, Japan, China and China who may love to co-operate with people here. People who were forced to find solutions NOW.
University programs, projects, profs are not interchangeable. Maybe in technical comparable programs, but what is coined at one department in a specific university, will not easily be replicated somewhere else (academics protect their specialties). It's not local unies "giving chances" to somebody else. It's about local students here who will not be able to study on an exchange program at a place of their interest-field of study in the EU. Or they will, but will have to pay a lot.

US already has their programs here, sure beans, I worked for a New Paltz that also had a program here, it was a coop in Europe with SUNY and they closed it. Too expensive for exchange students to come and get their credits, not enough local students. Again, imported accredited faculty, not enough local staff. If CH decides to outsource elsewhere, it is going to be a mess with accreditations. Bologna was difficult enough, and very late here, light years behind everyone else.
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Old 18.02.2014, 22:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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trade would still need to go through the EU...
Or over it.

Another reason to buy those Grippens.

Tom
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Old 18.02.2014, 22:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Would Switzerland really prefer Russia as its main partner, rather than the EU?
Personally, I much prefer caviar to bangers and mash.

Tom
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