Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 18.02.2014, 22:41
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: St Gallen Kanton
Posts: 640
Groaned at 143 Times in 97 Posts
Thanked 1,107 Times in 506 Posts
J2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond reputeJ2488 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Or over it.

Another reason to buy those Grippens.

Tom
From the EU?

Also, you may struggle fitting a 20 foot steel container to a fighter jet.

Dave.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank J2488 for this useful post:
  #42  
Old 18.02.2014, 22:45
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,114
Groaned at 927 Times in 723 Posts
Thanked 19,662 Times in 9,461 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
we are already contributing to the EU funds.
Time to stop, then.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #43  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:22
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Would Switzerland really prefer Russia as its main partner, rather than the EU?

Keep in mind, trade would still need to go through the EU...
No no no no no, defintely not. But if forces to do so by Mr Barroso, of course, the defil eats flys in distriess

Do not forget that Switzerland, Turkey and Russia WILL BE members of the EU in a longer term. Exactly THIS is what may be interesting for partners as mentioned
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:24
daboyblunder's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Highhorse im Innerschweiz
Posts: 368
Groaned at 23 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 162 Posts
daboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Time to stop, then.

Tom
Great Plan. But you maybe over looking some important facts.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/swi...central-europe

The Swiss tax payer will suffer one way or the other. Its in every ones interest that things keep moving
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:29
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Any solution will be complicated by the fact that Switzerland is completely surrounded by the EU.

Two of the "bilateral 1 agreements" are Civil aviation 1999 and Overland transport 1999; if the EU were to put a cap on the number of boats, planes, trucks and trains travelling over their territory to and from Switzerland then life could get interesting.
Germany is a member of ICAO, and Switzerland is a member of ECAC and Swiss International Airlines is owned by Lufthansa, and a lot of German airtraffic crosses the Canton of Schaffhausen, so that civili aviation will not be affected.

Beside all this, nobody in Germany or in Switzerland wants to accept limits to co-operation. Germany and Switzerland might make all the EU Bilaterals into CH-DE bilaterals overnight.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #46  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:38
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Beside all this, nobody in Germany or in Switzerland wants to accept limits to co-operation. Germany and Switzerland might make all the EU Bilaterals into CH-DE bilaterals overnight.
The comments in Germany around me are very... German, f.ex.

"It's not like we would be welcome now anyway"
"We'll take their money if we need something fromthem and they'll take ours"
"By the time the Swiss find out what the vote really means, everybody will have forgotten most of it"
"There is always the next referendum..."
"We won't be invaded by Swiss immigrants anytime soon, they don't speak German well enough to work in Germany"

... and a couple of other things I keep for a German audience. But the tone is quite sarcastic
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #47  
Old 18.02.2014, 23:39
daboyblunder's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Highhorse im Innerschweiz
Posts: 368
Groaned at 23 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 320 Times in 162 Posts
daboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeabledaboyblunder is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Germany and Switzerland might make all the EU Bilaterals into CH-DE bilaterals overnight.
Germany would have a lot more to lose going against the EU consensus than it could every gain ..
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank daboyblunder for this useful post:
  #48  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:06
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The comments in Germany around me are very... German, f.ex.

"It's not like we would be welcome now anyway"
"We'll take their money if we need something fromthem and they'll take ours"
"By the time the Swiss find out what the vote really means, everybody will have forgotten most of it"
"There is always the next referendum..."
"We won't be invaded by Swiss immigrants anytime soon, they don't speak German well enough to work in Germany"

... and a couple of other things I keep for a German audience. But the tone is quite sarcastic
which confirms that the Germans do not take the matter too seriously.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Wollishofener for this useful post:
  #49  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:09
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Valais
Posts: 305
Groaned at 57 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 259 Times in 130 Posts
SteAlka has earned the respect of manySteAlka has earned the respect of manySteAlka has earned the respect of many
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

In the meanwhile chez Moody:

http://www.boursorama.com/actualites...06bebfd858f1d4

http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-eco/201...n-negative.php
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 19.02.2014, 00:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
which confirms that the Germans do not take the matter too seriously.
They don't take the whole country seriously. One finds people who know Switzerland from within in the border region but otherwise, this votation is understood as misplaced arrogance. For the Germans who remember that the Swiss actually voted yes for those treaties they indirectly reject now, Swiss democracy looks very democratic but unreliable. The issue is looked at from a rather pragmatic or legal point of view, not political. No chance for the Swiss to ever understand the Germans under these circumstances. Not that the Swiss would listen anyway. Germany is basically thinking business first and don't really care about the Swiss who sound mostly primitive in their ears. The Swiss don't have to care, but the image "Schaden" is permanent now, especially after the tax evasion issues.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #51  
Old 19.02.2014, 02:16
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,520
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,534 Times in 4,676 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
The GBP is getting strong as the markets believe the UK is out of recession before Europe, if you remember the GBP went from 1.80 - 2.60 last time so 2.00 must be within easy reach this time
Fingers crossed
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 19.02.2014, 02:18
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,520
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,534 Times in 4,676 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
Wishful thinking I fear! Look at all the internal issues that the EU having coming up in the next few years, even if they wanted they just don't have the resources to spar on us! Further integration of Euroland, new member negotiations, possible UK renegotiation of membership, possible Scottish independence, trade talks with the US, bilateral agreements with Cuba and so on.

And then there is the whole decision making process, back in the day of many of our agreements, all that was needed was the agreement of the EU council of ministers. Now such agreements needs the agreement of the Commission, the Council and the Parliament to start. The parliament is an elected body and like all other politicians the are mindful of being reelected, so don't expect then to agree to anything that will be to the disadvantage of the citizens. And then there is the fact that Bulgaria, Romania and so on have a right to veto any new agreements and you can see how difficult it is going to be.
About "then there is the fact that Bulgaria, Romania and so on have a right to veto any new agreements" and do not forget Croatia who we probably severely upset by refusing FMOP for them - probably hurt their pride which will take some smoothing over
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank marton for this useful post:
This user groans at marton for this post:
  #53  
Old 19.02.2014, 03:27
Rhaetional's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Horgen
Posts: 33
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 61 Times in 23 Posts
Rhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

I'm sorry, but I am mildly irritated at some of your claims:

Quote:
View Post
(...) this votation is understood as misplaced arrogance.(...)
Since when is it arrogant for a sovereign country to wish to be in control of immigration and legislature? Besides, migration to the EU is not open to everyone who trades with them.

Quote:
View Post
(...)
For the Germans who remember that the Swiss actually voted yes for those treaties they indirectly reject now, Swiss democracy looks very democratic but unreliable. The issue is looked at from a rather pragmatic or legal point of view, not political. (...)
So lets assume you have a company. You put your executive board (EB) in charge of negotiating a contract of cooperation with another, larger company. Before they are signed, part of you voices concerns over losing control on some key aspects. But your EB assures you, that those worries are groundless.
Now, several years into it, you see how those concerns became fact and how your EB seems a little to eager to accommodate the other party.
You feel uncomfortable about an increasing amount of competences and control that is ceded to the other company. The last thing you want, is becoming another subsidy of this company.
Your company has profited from this agreement, of course, though it was doing all right beforehand as well. You remember, there are some clauses in the contract, allowing a re-negotiation in some circumstances. But there's always a risk.


Now, let's assume you want don't want to lose control over your company, even if it means less business. You know that the larger company's long term goal is to "absorb" you and that this rate of growth is not sustainable in the long run anyway. Now you have to decide, whether this deal should be re-negotiated.
What would be the prudent thing to do?


Quote:
View Post
(...)Germany is basically thinking business first and don't really care about the Swiss who sound mostly primitive in their ears. The Swiss don't have to care, but the image "Schaden" is permanent now, especially after the tax evasion issues.
*sigh* Well, to me it's arrogant how some German politicians talk down to Switzerland, trying to influence the happenings of a sovereign state.
Primitive is openly practicing economic espionage, paying thieves large bouts of money for subverting another countries laws. Only because its opportune for their own interests of helping themselves to a large bout of their citizens money. Implicitly that's like saying, that it's okay for a country such as, say, China to purchase industrial secrets and ignore copyright laws, because it is opportune for the countries growth.
In the recent years, there have been many examples of Germany (amongst others with the EU) have been eagerly to pressure CH into unilaterally adopting their needs and wishes.

This sort of behaviour has not exactly benefited the image of Germany in Switzerland, so I suppose the damage is mutual.

BTW, I deem it rather inappropriate to state one's opinion as though it represents that of a whole country. If you were just trolling, I give you 8/10 for making me reply.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Rhaetional for this useful post:
  #54  
Old 19.02.2014, 04:09
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,970
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
So lets assume you have a company. You put your executive board (EB) in charge of negotiating a contract of cooperation with another, larger company. Before they are signed, part of you voices concerns over losing control on some key aspects. But your EB assures you, that those worries are groundless.
Now, several years into it, you see how those concerns became fact and how your EB seems a little to eager to accommodate the other party.
You feel uncomfortable about an increasing amount of competences and control that is ceded to the other company. The last thing you want, is becoming another subsidy of this company.
Your company has profited from this agreement, of course, though it was doing all right beforehand as well. You remember, there are some clauses in the contract, allowing a re-negotiation in some circumstances. But there's always a risk.
but you're forgetting that nobody triggered any "rights to re-negotiate", in pure contract terms the vote on the initiative represents a repudiation.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #55  
Old 19.02.2014, 04:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,970
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
They don't take the whole country seriously. One finds people who know Switzerland from within in the border region but otherwise, this votation is understood as misplaced arrogance. For the Germans who remember that the Swiss actually voted yes for those treaties they indirectly reject now, Swiss democracy looks very democratic but unreliable. The issue is looked at from a rather pragmatic or legal point of view, not political. No chance for the Swiss to ever understand the Germans under these circumstances. Not that the Swiss would listen anyway. Germany is basically thinking business first and don't really care about the Swiss who sound mostly primitive in their ears. The Swiss don't have to care, but the image "Schaden" is permanent now, especially after the tax evasion issues.
I think you are grossly underestimating the true fear felt by the Germans.

Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank crazygringo for this useful post:
  #56  
Old 19.02.2014, 05:47
Rhaetional's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Horgen
Posts: 33
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 61 Times in 23 Posts
Rhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
but you're forgetting that nobody triggered any "rights to re-negotiate", in pure contract terms the vote on the initiative represents a repudiation.
Well yes and no. According to the initiative, the control over immigration shall remain with CH and gives the federal council the mandate of re-negotiating any contract in contradiction with that within three years.

Of course some of imposed limitations are contrary to the ROFM-principle. So there is the risk, that the EU will ultimately cancel the Bilateralen I via the guillotine clause. There was a 5 million CHF campaign to ensure everyone knows that.

I wanted to keep the text to growing even longer, so I only wrote "But there's always a risk." in reference to that, assuming the risks of renegotiating are known.
In hindsight, this was not very clear. So allow me to extend that sentence:
Quote:
But there's always the risk, that the negotiations fail and the agreement is subsequently cancelled.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Rhaetional for this useful post:
  #57  
Old 19.02.2014, 06:31
Rhaetional's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Horgen
Posts: 33
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 61 Times in 23 Posts
Rhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Also, some numbers to think about (from Wikipedia):

Quote:
As of 2014, 23.4% of Switzerland's population do not hold Swiss citizenship. The net immigration is 80,000 people per year, 1% of the total population (three times more than e.g. in Germany, four times more than in the U.S.). Every year 30,000 – 40,000 receive Swiss nationality (this represents a per capita rate of about three times that of both Germany and the United States). According to the European Commission about 1 million EU citizens live in Switzerland and another 230,000 cross the border daily for work, while 430,000 Swiss live in the EU.
By population density, CH (196 pers./km2) would rank number 5. against other EU-Countries. But this calculation includes the 60% of the surface-area taken up by the alps.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Rhaetional for this useful post:
  #58  
Old 19.02.2014, 06:48
Rhaetional's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Horgen
Posts: 33
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 61 Times in 23 Posts
Rhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeableRhaetional is considered knowledgeable
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
(See previous post)
Sorry, wanted to preview, but posted instead.

Is that rate of growth reasonable or even sustainable?
How will it affect the quality of living in CH?
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Rhaetional for this useful post:
  #59  
Old 19.02.2014, 07:12
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,269
Groaned at 215 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 16,473 Times in 6,018 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
By population density, CH (196 pers./km2)...


How will it affect the quality of living in CH?


I currently live in a country with a population density of over 7000 per square kilometre, so not double or triple but 35 times higher than CH. I find the quality of living here on par with Switzerland if not better. The discussion on sustainable population density is bullshit and just barely covered xenophobia.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #60  
Old 19.02.2014, 08:01
Wollishofener's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Glattbrugg
Posts: 19,028
Groaned at 333 Times in 258 Posts
Thanked 11,712 Times in 6,857 Posts
Wollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond reputeWollishofener has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Quote:
View Post
but you're forgetting that nobody triggered any "rights to re-negotiate", in pure contract terms the vote on the initiative represents a repudiation.

Switzerland NOW : .

the SVP clearly spoke about the right to re-negotiate, and many believed them

in the meantime, the university of Geneva is to replace "Erasmus" with "Coimbra" which is NOT under the EU, but has members like Oxford, Cambridge, Siena and Istanbul
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Immigration status of Non-EU starting a business in Switzerland alesco Business & entrepreneur 28 09.11.2015 14:26
Masseneinwanderung [Immigration] vote - Facts Slaphead Swiss politics/news 4 29.06.2014 19:59
Is there any age limits to starting a PhD? Breezy Family matters/health 15 18.11.2012 01:23
Immigration limits in the UK: what about scientists? HashBrown International affairs/politics 5 08.10.2010 00:29


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 23:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0