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Old 13.05.2014, 17:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Changing the agenda .
How dare you not think all's perfect here.. But then, I don't trust those almost living on EF, or any internet site for that matter, chances are their real life is minimal.

CH has been always open to sensible progress, I think it will pick up again, when isolation gets old or too expensive. I am not too worried.
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  #782  
Old 13.05.2014, 21:35
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nobody cares about CH closing itself back to Heidi paradise. States care about what a treaty with CH is worth. Signed today and rejected a few years later because the population felt like it? Why signing anything in the first place, then.
Ah! That explains what the 16'000 Swiss soldiers were doing at the French border some weeks ago. They were the mercenaries provided to the French King as defined by the "Perpetual Accord" 1521.

Anyone who thinks treaties can not be renegotiated or are valid for eternity can't possible have lived with open ears and eyes for very long. And it's not as if Switzerland was the only country doing that. Ever heard of the Maastricht Treaty?
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  #783  
Old 13.05.2014, 21:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"Ill-mannered" because it is generally not good manners for a guest to cast dispersions on the cultural heritage of his/her hosts. And you might pay your way here, but you are nevertheless a guest - albeit a paying one - which is desirable, but which does not afford you equal footing to citizens of the host nation ... But I am sure you already are fully aware of this ...

I have talked at length in previous posts on what my stance is regarding cultural changes and what I believe is the right way for those to come about.
I fail to see why it is "Ill-mannered" for anyone to comment on any countries cultural heritage; well founded criticism should be studied and used to benefit all - not dismissed as "Ill-mannered" .

As mentioned several times before, I am a citizen here although I myself like most Swiss people do not believe that comments on cultural change should be limited to members of this private club.
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Old 13.05.2014, 22:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Changing the agenda .
I like you, your optimism is contagious. Same goes for MC.
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Old 14.05.2014, 00:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Seems that Russia threatens to stop delivering and collecting stuff for USA from the International Space Station (ISS).
Also to stop launching US military satellites
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Old 14.05.2014, 02:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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...it's the Swiss people who are ultimately responsible for their land, for their society, and for their well-being - not the immigrants.
Actually, given enough time, it will be their decision too because they or their children will BE the Swiss people, and it will be THEIR land as well.
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Old 14.05.2014, 05:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Be careful with the speed limits.
The Swiss are more Catholic than the Pope, I've heard.
Quite new to me that the Pope controls speed limits
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Old 14.05.2014, 06:11
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Actually, given enough time, it will be their decision too because they or their children will BE the Swiss people, and it will be THEIR land as well.
An immigrant who becomes a citizen of a Canton in Switzerland is no longer an immigrant but a "member"

The groups of immigrants are so diverse that they alltogether are or will be Swiss as Swiss can be
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Old 14.05.2014, 11:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I fail to see why it is "Ill-mannered" for anyone to comment on any countries cultural heritage; well founded criticism should be studied and used to benefit all - not dismissed as "Ill-mannered" .

As mentioned several times before, I am a citizen here although I myself like most Swiss people do not believe that comments on cultural change should be limited to members of this private club.
You are not simply "commenting" but were calling into question whether it be a good thing that Swiss cultural heritage be protected. However I failed to realize that you were a citizen of Switzerland, and as such I must apologize for having earlier called you a "guest" in this country. As a citizen it would not be ill-mannered to criticize your own cultural heritage ... since you are Swiss I take it you have some appreciation for the cultural heritage on this nation ...
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Old 14.05.2014, 12:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You are not simply "commenting" but were calling into question whether it be a good thing that Swiss cultural heritage be protected. However I failed to realize that you were a citizen of Switzerland, and as such I must apologize for having earlier called you a "guest" in this country. As a citizen it would not be ill-mannered to criticize your own cultural heritage ... since you are Swiss I take it you have some appreciation for the cultural heritage on this nation ...
At least, if many Swiss people have the same arguments as you, I will really have no problems at surviving in this environment.
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Old 14.05.2014, 17:47
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You are not simply "commenting" but were calling into question whether it be a good thing that Swiss cultural heritage be protected. However I failed to realize that you were a citizen of Switzerland, and as such I must apologize for having earlier called you a "guest" in this country. As a citizen it would not be ill-mannered to criticize your own cultural heritage ... since you are Swiss I take it you have some appreciation for the cultural heritage on this nation ...
Wow. Coz as a non Swiss you assume we cannot appreciate? What if we do, even more? How do you measure? Criticize does not mean not appreciate. It means wanting to have it even better. For everyone. What does it have to do with the vote, at all?

So much apprehension... As if new stuff meant some absolute danger. Breathe..That's what I say to kids before starting a new chapter. And run for it, dive in, head first. There's nowhere else a place could afford experiments as easily as here.
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Old 14.05.2014, 17:54
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Wow. Coz as a non Swiss you assume we cannot appreciate? What if we do, even more? How do you measure? Criticize does not mean not appreciate. It means wanting to have it even better. For everyone. What does it have to do with the vote, at all?

So much apprehension... As if new stuff meant some absolute danger. Breathe..That's what I say to kids before starting a new chapter. And run for it, dive in, head first. There's nowhere else a place could afford experiments as easily as here.
Many of us are here in Switzerland because there is something here that is better than in our home countries. It can be job opportunities but it can equally be a whole range of other things.

It is dangerous to come in and seek to make changes without fully understanding the interconnections between these things as we may inadvertently be eroding the very reason we came here in the first place. The positives and negatives of different countries and cultures are often connected and it can be difficult to have one without having the other.
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Old 14.05.2014, 18:20
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Many of us are here in Switzerland because there is something here that is better than in our home countries. It can be job opportunities but it can equally be a whole range of other things.

It is dangerous to come in and seek to make changes without fully understanding the interconnections between these things as we may inadvertently be eroding the very reason we came here in the first place. The positives and negatives of different countries and cultures are often connected and it can be difficult to have one without having the other.
Yes, and many of us aren't necessarily here because they needed to escape something bad. Nor do we feel like keeping our eyes closed and mouth shut. Because that does not improve anything, just like shaming those daring to share opinions and suggestions for improvements with some kind of corny cultural heritage stick. Locals I know have fewer illusions and criticise more than I ever dare, heh. Btw, I completely understand your point and appreciate this debate. Except those black and white rhetorics, ie suggestions for improvements are directly linked to endangering cultural heritage and other pseudo patriotic cliches. This place needs competition. Which means letting open debate in. The quality of political discourse in media is poor. I like this place and want it to be even better.
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Old 14.05.2014, 18:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Yes, and many of us aren't necessarily here because they needed to escape something bad. Nor do we feel like keeping our eyes closed and mouth shut. Because that does not improve anything, just like shaming those daring to share opinions and suggestions for improvements with some kind of corny cultural heritage stick. Locals I know have fewer illusions and criticise more than I ever dare, heh. Btw, I completely understand your point and appreciate this debate. Except those black and white rhetorics, ie suggestions for improvements are directly linked to endangering cultural heritage and other pseud patriotic cliches. This place needs competition. Which means letting open debate in. The quality of political discourse in media is poor. I like this place and want it to be even better.
I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction.

It is part of human nature that the grass on the other side is always greener. So many Swiss I know wish Switzerland could be a bit more like the UK or the US, or at least more like Germany. Most of these haven't actually lived in any of those countries so what they are seeking is really an idealized concept representing a somewhat utopic version of said countries with all the bad bits censored out.

Having lived in two of those countries myself and now living in Switzerland of my own free choice I often find myself taking the contrarian position and reminding my Swiss friends of how good they have it here and how some of their utopic visions of other countries are based on half truths and the illusion they can have the good bits without having the bad bits.

This is not to say all change is wrong, but not all change is right either. You can't have the ying without the yang.
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Old 14.05.2014, 20:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Many of us are here in Switzerland because there is something here that is better than in our home countries. It can be job opportunities but it can equally be a whole range of other things.

It is dangerous to come in and seek to make changes without fully understanding the interconnections between these things as we may inadvertently be eroding the very reason we came here in the first place. The positives and negatives of different countries and cultures are often connected and it can be difficult to have one without having the other.
Well as I posted earlier "maybe we will even see women with a proper role in Sechseläuten."

A large part of the Swiss cultural heritage seems to be to keep ladies in their place - chained to the kitchen.

For example, the conflict between Blocher and Widmer-Schlumpf; if she had stayed in the SVP then she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat to do the excellent work she has done.

Maybe you also want to keep ladies "in their place"?
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Old 14.05.2014, 20:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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This place needs competition. .
MC, this is exactly what people are afraid of. Also here, on EF.
I'm actually fed up with most of the comments made by the new citizens or wannabe new citizens who are
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"acting like third world new rich exposing their perceived privileges"
. (someone very wise put it this way, I only quoted him)

Yes, Switzerland should completely close her gates or allow only a few chosen-ones, and that would make a lot of people happy.
Watch out, don't let any "suspect" in.

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Old 15.05.2014, 01:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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MC, this is exactly what people are afraid of. Also here, on EF.
I'm actually fed up with most of the comments made by the new citizens or wannabe new citizens who are . (someone very wise put it this way, I only quoted him)

Yes, Switzerland should completely close her gates or allow only a few chosen-ones, and that would make a lot of people happy.
Watch out, don't let any "suspect" in.

Culture in Switzerland among other things means poetry. 70% of the poetry books and the song books of the Protestant Church and the song books of the Catholic church originate from Germany. Theodor Fontane for years was a favourite poet of mine. And Karl May (Radebeul near Dresden) for ages was very popular in Switzerland.
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Old 15.05.2014, 05:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Could someone please explain to me how the "culture" of Switzerland is threatened by immigration? I can understand the arguments that too many immigrants are a drain on society, that they aren't learning the language fast enough, that they are committing too much crime. I know these arguments because they are made in my country, too, but I'm troubled about these pleas for the "culture" of Switzerland. It sounds like code for "there are too many people coming in here from all these exotic lands like Italy, France, Germany, and Austria."

I do think that the culture of Switzerland IS affected and changed by immigration, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. One of the reasons why London won the right to host the 2012 Olympics over Paris wasn't just the personal charisma of Lord Sebastian Coe but the fact that over 100 different languages are spoken in London. It may be asking too much for Geneva, Zurich, or Basel to become THAT cosmopolitan, but if people from other countries WANT to live in your country that's usually a good thing. I hope that the effect of this referendum will not mess up that "good thing" for Switzerland, and the people who live there.
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Old 15.05.2014, 08:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Culture in Switzerland among other things means poetry. 70% of the poetry books and the song books of the Protestant Church and the song books of the Catholic church originate from Germany. Theodor Fontane for years was a favourite poet of mine. And Karl May (Radebeul near Dresden) for ages was very popular in Switzerland.
Thanks for the poetry, you know I love it..I miss seeing workers on public transport in their dirty blue overalls with a dogeared beat up poetry book sticking out of their pocket, on their way to work 5am, when I was a nurse on my way to my shift. ( thanks for K. May, I had gone thru 18 novels of his by the time I turned 11, it was awesome. And Dumas!)

Very few books really published here, Romands mostly import French production. The art that accompanies local book publication, ugh, we had better high school weekly. Competition would set higher standards, even in silly (apparently not so needed, who needs art in mega pragmatic culture with homogenized palate) stuff like kids books and textbooks. There are quality people, but I think they shift themselves to NYC or somewhere after a while..

Anyways. Amogles, I lived in the US, Berlin and the UK. I miss all but can certainly appreciate the potential that is here. Potential. I wouldn't say locals are so naieve to have grass is always greener outlook on all, at least those I know. I think they are getting tired of having their taxes wasted on stuff that will have to be re-adjusted a short moment after it's been expensively messed up. If Swiss gov regrets the vote (VD has published an official apology to foreigners right few days after the fed vote), then it should invest in civilised and profound political debate and go after those who manipulate the sway-able crowds too easily. A racist, discriminatory or xenophobic card would be an easy start. They haven't done it. It costs us all a lot of money. Even those who don't vote.

Don't let me start on chicks and their support. Thanks, marton.
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Old 15.05.2014, 11:40
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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For example, the conflict between Blocher and Widmer-Schlumpf; if she had stayed in the SVP then she would never have been allowed in the Bundesrat to do the excellent work she has done.
Opinions are divided as to whether the work she's doing there really is so excellent. She's really just the left wing's favourite right wing politician - and that's not a distinction that counts for much at the end of the day.

If the SVP didn't want her in the Bundesrat that had nothing to do with her being a woman and everything to do with her standing against the SVP's clearly stated and long-standing candidate of choice.

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I do think that the culture of Switzerland IS affected and changed by immigration, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. One of the reasons why London won the right to host the 2012 Olympics over Paris wasn't just the personal charisma of Lord Sebastian Coe but the fact that over 100 different languages are spoken in London. It may be asking too much for Geneva, Zurich, or Basel to become THAT cosmopolitan, but if people from other countries WANT to live in your country that's usually a good thing. I hope that the effect of this referendum will not mess up that "good thing" for Switzerland, and the people who live there.
I'm pretty sure there are 100 languages spoken in Zürich too, if you know where to look and who to ask. And I'm also pretty sure most people who flew into London from all five continents to watch the Olympics came because they wanted to see the olympics. No matter where the games are held, they manage to sell out the stadium. The rest is Londoners patting their own backs as to what smart chaps they are. There never was and never will be another Olympics like London's. 1964 and all that.

But anyway, London is London. Why should anybody strive to be a second London? London may be cool for visitors because you they choose between a hundred types of cuisine. But if Unterzollikofen were like that too, why would anybody want to go to London? In the US for example, few would quibble with the fact that NYC is one of the most awesome cities in the country if not the world. But many of the cities that suck beyond imagining do so because they strived to copy NYC and failed dismally, whereas some of the other cool cities in the US such as New Orleans and San Francisco actually tried to be themselves. There must surely be a lesson here. I don't get why people leave one place and then start demanding their new place should try to become just like the old.

Last edited by amogles; 15.05.2014 at 11:54.
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