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  #1161  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Well then, if that is true, the EU is in contempt of it's own agreement!
You are not a lawyer are you?

They quite sensibly wrote that this FMOP point is not negotiable.
The article you quoted has "Media outlets had reported the EU’s unanimous decision on Thursday." About " EU’s unanimous decision"; so it is possible that the joint committee or a similar body was consulted?

As a Swiss tax payer I think this is a better approach than sending an expensive bunch of politicians and their advisers to a Joint Committee meeting where the other side unanimously states this FMOP point is not negotiable and then they all have an expensive dinner and fly home again.

This is called the seagull approach "fly in, eat all your food, crap everywhere and fly away again"
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  #1162  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:50
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I can understand you want to hide the responsibility of SVP Maurer in this area but it won't work
Demonstrate that Mr. Mauer was involved in the implementation of the MEI. Last I hear he was more involved with the nation's defence and military ...

"Three ministries – the foreign, justice and economics ministries - will now anaylse the content of the text, foreign ministry spokesman Pierre-Alain Eltschinger told the Swiss news agency." (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-co...ement/40521130)

I don't see any mention of the Ministry of Defence in there ...

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Finally you got the point! Hurrah!!
I quote "In the June 2007 European summit meeting, Member States agreed to abandon the constitution and to amend the existing treaties, which would remain in force."
Really!?
I found your bit of quoted text in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...ion_for_Europe)

How does this relate to Switzerland!? ... since ... we ... were ... not ... a ... "Member State" ...

Last edited by EAB; 19.11.2014 at 19:00.
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  #1163  
Old 19.11.2014, 18:56
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Based on the amount of hair splitting your posts show, this will probably go nowhere as well, but here is an article about the response of the EU.

"Bern has acknowledged receipt of a significant letter in which the European Union states that it will not renegotiate the free movement of people agreement with Switzerland. .... In the letter to Swiss President Didier Burkhalter, signed by the EU foreign policy chief, Catherine Ashton, the EU states that the free movement of people is one of the EU’s fundamental principles and thus cannot be negotiated or restricted through the use of quotas."

No mention of any Joint Committee as is clearly referred to in the FMOP agreement Article 18. There is your "hair splitting" for you ...
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  #1164  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:01
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"Sabotage" - excellently summed up there what many people I have spoken to felt like regarding the Federal Committee after the vote. Even speaking to a friend of mine who was completely opposed to the MEI, when I said that it feels like the Federal Government was dragging it's feet in implementing the people's wish he replied with a grin, "Well obviously they are" ... So it's kind of an unofficial fact and acknowledged by both spectrum’s of the electorate.
Acknowledged by both ends of the spectrum ... absolutely. But that doesn't prevent certain souls here on the EF going into total denial of the obvious.
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  #1165  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Demonstrate that Mr. Mauer was involved in the implementation of the MEI. Last I hear he was more involved with the nation's defence and military ...



Really!?
I found your bit of quoted text in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...ion_for_Europe)

How does this relate to Switzerland!? ... since ... we ... were ... not ... a ... "Member State" ...
About "Demonstrate that Mr. Mauer was involved in the implementation of the MEI. Last I hear he was more involved with the nation's defence and military ... "

No need for a demonstration, do you really not understand how Federal Goverment works?
He is a member of the Bundesrat and equally responsible with the other six for all policies and decisions; if he does not like this then he can always resign

About "How does this relate to Switzerland!? ... since ... we ... were ... not ... a ... "Member State" ..."

I will try to keep this very simple

You remember that you wrote "so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!? "

The answer is yes; Switzerland has a constitution and the EU has no constitution - EU decided to have treaties instead of a constitution.
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  #1166  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You remember that you wrote "so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!? "

The answer is yes; Switzerland has a constitution and the EU has no constitution - EU decided to have treaties instead of a constitution.
A constitution is a treaty between the people and the government or between the people mutually to define the government. Similarly, treaties between member states may under certain conditions have constitutional character, but here we are talking about a treaty between the EU and a non-member state.
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  #1167  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:15
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Poll: voters edge towards immigration curbs.

Tom
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  #1168  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:18
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "Demonstrate that Mr. Mauer was involved in the implementation of the MEI. Last I hear he was more involved with the nation's defence and military ... "

No need for a demonstration, do you really not understand how Federal Goverment works?
He is a member of the Bundesrat and equally responsible with the other six for all policies and decisions; if he does not like this then he can always resign
Okay, we have established that

1) Mr Maurer belongs to the same party that initiated the referendum
2) Mr Maurer is member of the Bundesrat.

What you fail to demonstrate is that this makes Mr Maurer part of the initiative committee, and that his presence in the Bundesrat absolves the Bundesrat of the need to involve the initiative committee in the implementation of the referendum.
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  #1169  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:26
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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This is just being dense ....

If CH wanted to change something in the transport agreement, the EU would probably renegotiate, since nothing in it is a founding pillar for the EU.

The EU is not putting up FMoP for negotiation, no matter what you imagine Article 18 to be.
The founding pillars of the EU were propping up inefficient French agriculture, pretending to defend Belgian coal miners, putting British fishermen out of business and making the Germans pay. Oh, and also to find find something to keep senile politicians busy.
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  #1170  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:29
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Okay, we have established that

1) Mr Maurer belongs to the same party that initiated the referendum
2) Mr Maurer is member of the Bundesrat.

What you fail to demonstrate is that this makes Mr Maurer part of the initiative committee, and that his presence in the Bundesrat absolves the Bundesrat of the need to involve the initiative committee in the implementation of the referendum.
About "What you fail to demonstrate is that this makes Mr Maurer part of the initiative committee, and that his presence in the Bundesrat absolves the Bundesrat of the need to involve the initiative committee in the implementation of the referendum"

Because I am not trying to demonstrate these points, stop trying to change the game!

You and other EF members are making claims about Bundesrat policies and actions and I am "demonstrating" that Maurer is equally as responsible as the other Bundesrat members for these.
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  #1171  
Old 19.11.2014, 19:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "What you fail to demonstrate is that this makes Mr Maurer part of the initiative committee, and that his presence in the Bundesrat absolves the Bundesrat of the need to involve the initiative committee in the implementation of the referendum"

Because I am not trying to demonstrate these points, stop trying to change the game!

You and other EF members are making claims about Bundesrat policies and actions and I am "demonstrating" that Maurer is equally as responsible as the other Bundesrat members for these.
Mr Maurer is "equally responsible", same as the six other automatons.

Do you feel better, now that you've got that off your chest?
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  #1172  
Old 19.11.2014, 20:04
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No need for a demonstration, do you really not understand how Federal Goverment works?
He is a member of the Bundesrat and equally responsible with the other six for all policies and decisions; if he does not like this then he can always resign
"The Swiss government comprises the seven members of the Federal Council, who are elected by the United Federal Assembly for a four-year term of office. The entire workload of the Federal Council is divided among the seven federal departments. They are the highest organisational units of the Federal Administration, and they each have a member of the Federal Council as their head." (http://www.admin.ch/br/org/br/index.html?lang=en)

All I see is seven heads of seven departments. The MEI, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the "Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection and Sports".
Why would Mr. Maurer have been part of the task force dealing with the implementation of the MEI?

And as I quoted earlier from this article:

"Three ministries – the foreign, justice and economics ministries - will now anaylse the content of the text, foreign ministry spokesman Pierre-Alain Eltschinger told the Swiss news agency."

I don't see the ministry of defence mentioned anywhere ...

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About "How does this relate to Switzerland!? ... since ... we ... were ... not ... a ... "Member State" ..."

I will try to keep this very simple

You remember that you wrote "so you are equating a nation's constitution to a bilateral treaty!? "

The answer is yes; Switzerland has a constitution and the EU has no constitution - EU decided to have treaties instead of a constitution.
Exactly - thereby it stands to reason that a "constitution" and "treaties" are two differing legal items - no!? If they were the same there would be no reason for the differentiation.
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  #1173  
Old 19.11.2014, 20:19
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

The seagull approach:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suYz5SHFHyA
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  #1174  
Old 19.11.2014, 20:57
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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This is the lie. Its not about Swiss sovereignty, but exploiting nationalism to gain seats in the Bundesrat and Federal council.

The Swiss voted to make a deal with the EU, now wants to break it. Fine. The EU will also break its end of the deal by imposing tariffs, etc etc as they would on any third country. Somehow the famous Swiss pragmatism breaks down when it comes to this simple fact.

Taking the SVP concept of sovereignty to its logical end, the only true sovereign country is North Korea.

And yes, Blocher lied when he claimed the EU is bound to renegotiate the bilaterals. The EU has already refused. When even the UK is not getting a pass on the FMOP, expecting CH to get one is a daydream.



The Swiss do NOT want to break the deal with the EU, only to achieve some modifications --- And no modification in regard to the Free Trade Agreement of 1970
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  #1175  
Old 19.11.2014, 21:02
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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"The Swiss government comprises the seven members of the Federal Council, who are elected by the United Federal Assembly for a four-year term of office. The entire workload of the Federal Council is divided among the seven federal departments. They are the highest organisational units of the Federal Administration, and they each have a member of the Federal Council as their head." (http://www.admin.ch/br/org/br/index.html?lang=en)

All I see is seven heads of seven departments. The MEI, to my knowledge, has nothing to do with the "Federal Department of Defence, Civil Protection and Sports".
Why would Mr. Maurer have been part of the task force dealing with the implementation of the MEI?

And as I quoted earlier from this article:

"Three ministries – the foreign, justice and economics ministries - will now anaylse the content of the text, foreign ministry spokesman Pierre-Alain Eltschinger told the Swiss news agency."

I don't see the ministry of defence mentioned anywhere ...



Exactly - thereby it stands to reason that a "constitution" and "treaties" are two differing legal items - no!? If they were the same there would be no reason for the differentiation.
About "Why would Mr. Maurer have been part of the task force dealing with the implementation of the MEI?"

No idea why, who ever said he should be?
However as a Bundesrat member he is equally responsible for policies and decisions. You really do not understand the meaning of group responsibility do you?

About " it stands to reason that a "constitution" and "treaties" are two differing legal items" As I mentioned before you are not a lawyer are you?

What on earth do you mean by "legal items"?

A constitution can be defined as "A set of rules by which a country, state, or organization is governed"

A treaty can be defined as "When two nations sign a treaty, they decide to govern things according to rules defined in their agreement"

Switzerland has a constitution.
EU does not have a constitution; it has treaties between member states and also with external countries - like Switzerland.

These are facts, what do you find so hard to understand?

They both are sets of rules about governance.
Different names and created in different ways but essentially providing a similar governance approach.
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  #1176  
Old 19.11.2014, 21:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

Not surprising!

The SVP managed to win an initiative that committed the Bundesrat to perform an impossible task. Now people are upset with the Bundesrat for failing and are reacting in this way.
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  #1177  
Old 19.11.2014, 21:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "Why would Mr. Maurer have been part of the task force dealing with the implementation of the MEI?"

No idea why, who ever said he should be?
However as a Bundesrat member he is equally responsible for policies and decisions. You really do not understand the meaning of group responsibility do you?
So help me understand how someone who is not at all involved in the decision making should then be held accountable for the decisions made.

Quote:
About " it stands to reason that a "constitution" and "treaties" are two differing legal items" As I mentioned before you are not a lawyer are you?

What on earth do you mean by "legal items"?
Legal Items - Legal Instruments.

Quote:
A constitution can be defined as "A set of rules by which a country, state, or organization is governed"

A treaty can be defined as "When two nations sign a treaty, they decide to govern things according to rules defined in their agreement"

Switzerland has a constitution.
EU does not have a constitution; it has treaties between member states and also with external countries - like Switzerland.

These are facts, what do you find so hard to understand?

They both are sets of rules about governance.
Different names and created in different ways but essentially providing a similar governance approach.
Aaaaaand so ... essentially they are not the same.
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  #1178  
Old 19.11.2014, 21:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not surprising!

The SVP managed to win an initiative that committed the Bundesrat to perform an impossible task. Now people are upset with the Bundesrat for failing and are reacting in this way.
Which is why the SVP should have been given the lead after MEI passed. Have them eat their own spoiled cooking.
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  #1179  
Old 19.11.2014, 21:42
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Not surprising!

The SVP managed to win an initiative that committed the Bundesrat to perform an impossible task. Now people are upset with the Bundesrat for failing and are reacting in this way.

Yeah, yeah ... whatever! The people are frustrated with the Federal Government for not showing enough gusto with trying to implement the initiative - the "task" is not "impossible" - that's just your opinion. I don't know if it's possible, but what I do know is that the impression the Federal Government has given many people is that they are resentful of the people who voted YES and are dragging their feet to get the ball rolling. Maybe you, and others like you think that the Federal Government has been doing absolutely everything within their power to implement the MEI, but that has obviously not filtered down to many Swiss people - call them what you like!
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  #1180  
Old 19.11.2014, 22:41
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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So help me understand how someone who is not at all involved in the decision making should then be held accountable for the decisions made.

Legal Items - Legal Instruments.

Aaaaaand so ... essentially they are not the same.

About "So help me understand how someone who is not at all involved in the decision making should then be held accountable for the decisions made."

But we are talking about Mr Maurer who is involved, who attends their weekly Bundesrat meetings, who comments on proposals and who votes on decisions.
But you know all this so why are you writing "who is not at all involved......"
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