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  #1321  
Old 13.12.2014, 15:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Only 2 in top 6, versus stating only 7 are in top 10. Cute. You can work for RT News!
You mean 7 in the top 11! As I already posted there are 4 European universities in the top 6.
When I was in school seven plus 4 was 11 - or maybe US universities have a different maths system?
Maybe you should work for Voice of America!

We could also write that 10 US universities are in the top 20.

9 from the top 20 are from "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe" and one from Canada.
Two of the nine are from little Switzerland

When you get down to the 700's then 25% are US universities

Which ever way we cut the bacon it is clearly nonsense to describe European universities as "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe".
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  #1322  
Old 13.12.2014, 15:37
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

OK, so if perhaps the funding side of Erasmus+ is a bit of a downer for Switzerland, what are the benefits that we get in return, and would those benefits not be possible without Erasmus+?
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  #1323  
Old 13.12.2014, 16:30
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You do know Erasmus is a European student exchange scheme sowhat is the relevance of Harvard.

About "not some (relatively speaking) obscure outfit in Europe"; you mean Oxford, Cambridge, Ecole Normale Supérieure, Paris and Ecole Polytechnique ParisTech?, ETH Zürich &&&

Only 2 US universities are in the world top 6, look here! The other 4 are from "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe"
Yale (not Harvard as you claim I said) was the first helpful hit on my search, feel free to look up the meaning of "quick try".

Taking any single ranking as the literal truth is a foolish undertaking IMO. However, the general tendency transcending is that swiss universities are ranked among the best within Europe (often ETHZ is #3 after Cambridge and Oxford), and often topmost for continental Europe - in fact "your" survey exactly mimics that pattern with ETHZ and EPFL (ranks 12 and 19) vastly in lead, France (ranks 28 and 41) and Germany (rank 50) a distant 2nd and 3rd. In my book that does indeed make most european universities relatively obscure.

As for costs, per your ranking Yale is quite a bit more expensive than Oxford and Cambridge (both around $30k) which validates my quick pick. Obviously it would be much cheaper for CH to pay ordinary tuition (without even the slightest rebates) instead of staying in Erasmus based on the the 2020 demands.

The way I see it you you actually make my point, TYVM.
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  #1324  
Old 13.12.2014, 16:52
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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apologies, I get paid to do my own thinking.
I really hope you are a writer or painter or otherwise in the business of creating art, because in all other jobs that have some intellectual requirements your "own thinking" has to be based on facts. You need the numbers. You need the facts. Then you can interpret them and form an opinion / hypothesis.

Pulling out random theories out of ones ass is not seen as a positive thing in most professions.

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honestly, though, what I wrote is hardly a secret,
Stating something as being "hardly a secret" is an other way of stating that the truth of your claim is common knowledge. If it is a well accepted fact that your claims are true, it can not be very difficult to produce an adequate source for it.

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just call up any junior analyst at PwC, KPMG, E&Y or Deloitte.



for EAB - the money exits Switzerland by way of interco "loans", dividends or other funding structures. I am sure the good folks at PwC would be happy to help:

https://www.pwc.ch/en/todays_challen...itzerland.html

P.S. whether or not you are against foreign investment is immaterial, you just need to remember that foreign investment usually comes with foreigners.
You claimed something, now we are demanding proof and sources. This is completely legitimate and best practice since the 17th century.

And your best shot is linking to PWC... seriously? Sorry, but if you came up with such claims in one of my business meetings and provided nothing as a source except what is essentially an advert for PWC you would get torn apart. What's next? Discussing environmental issues based on what the shop assistant at a gas station told you? The site you linked to doesn't even contain any information about the current situation in Switzerland! I can not believe you can not do better than this!



Sorry, but if you want to play with adults you have to step up your game. This is not even high school niveau.
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  #1325  
Old 13.12.2014, 16:55
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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You mean 7 in the top 11! As I already posted there are 4 European universities in the top 6.
When I was in school seven plus 4 was 11 - or maybe US universities have a different maths system?
Maybe you should work for Voice of America!

We could also write that 10 US universities are in the top 20.

9 from the top 20 are from "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe" and one from Canada.
Two of the nine are from little Switzerland

When you get down to the 700's then 25% are US universities

Which ever way we cut the bacon it is clearly nonsense to describe European universities as "some (relatively speaking) obscure outfits in Europe".
Princeton and Caltech are tied for 10th, so that makes 7 in the top 10. But alright, carry on.
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  #1326  
Old 13.12.2014, 19:24
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Total EU Erasmus expenditures were €547mio for 2013, with about 5% yearly increase long-term. According to the Handelsblatt article above, EU demanded that CH agree to pay €100mio annually by 2020.

Swiss univercities are among the best Erasmus-wide, and at the same time among the least expensive. It seems about 3'000 swiss students study abroad every year, for an average of 6-7months.

So CH would have been expected to pay $50k per Erasmus-semester by swiss students, and thereby finance about 20% of the total Erasmus expenditures.

Frankly, these Erasmus guys must be out of their minds.
According to the article you quoted Switzerland was expected to pay around 28M CHF in 2014. ; "rund 28 Millionen Franken im Jahr 2014 ", which is about 10K per student.
The higher figures you quoted for later years are not fixed as you state; this was a proposal by the EU that was not accepted by Switzerland.
Was an ongoing negotiation that has now stalled due to this vote.
Same as buying a car; you do not buy for the first price quoted - or maybe you do?

Also comparing proposed Erasmus costs for 2020 with current US university costs is hardly good practice. US $ based prices could be very different then.

About " thereby finance about 20% of the total Erasmus expenditures. " Now you are comparing the EU requested payment from Switzerland in 2020 (which is not agreed or accepted) with EU annual cost in 2013 (7 years earlier!), also not good practice.
EU Erasmus costs are likely to be much higher in 2020 due to increased number of countries and consequently students plus usual price inflation.

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Yale (not Harvard as you claim I said) was the first helpful hit on my search, feel free to look up the meaning of "quick try".

Taking any single ranking as the literal truth is a foolish undertaking IMO. However, the general tendency transcending is that swiss universities are ranked among the best within Europe (often ETHZ is #3 after Cambridge and Oxford), and often topmost for continental Europe - in fact "your" survey exactly mimics that pattern with ETHZ and EPFL (ranks 12 and 19) vastly in lead, France (ranks 28 and 41) and Germany (rank 50) a distant 2nd and 3rd. In my book that does indeed make most european universities relatively obscure.

As for costs, per your ranking Yale is quite a bit more expensive than Oxford and Cambridge (both around $30k) which validates my quick pick. Obviously it would be much cheaper for CH to pay ordinary tuition (without even the slightest rebates) instead of staying in Erasmus based on the the 2020 demands.


The way I see it you you actually make my point, TYVM.

About "Yale (not Harvard as you claim I said)" Sorry tried irony but was a lost cause

About "that does indeed make most european universities relatively obscure." Also a good try by switching from Europe to "continental Europe* to support your convoluted logic.

However UK is both in the EU and in Erasmus. UK has 4 Universities in the top 10 (6 in the top 20) and Switzerland is at number 12 and 19.
So there are 8 European universities in the top 20 and therefore makes nonsense of your claim " not some (relatively speaking) obscure outfit in Europe." - you posted nothing about continental Europe.

About "Taking any single ranking as the literal truth is a foolish undertaking IMO" and saying "that does indeed make most european universities relatively obscure." without any factual basis is not foolish?

Last edited by marton; 13.12.2014 at 21:05.
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  #1327  
Old 13.12.2014, 20:03
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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I really hope you are a writer or painter or otherwise in the business of creating art, because in all other jobs that have some intellectual requirements your "own thinking" has to be based on facts. You need the numbers. You need the facts. Then you can interpret them and form an opinion / hypothesis.

Pulling out random theories out of ones ass is not seen as a positive thing in most professions.


Stating something as being "hardly a secret" is an other way of stating that the truth of your claim is common knowledge. If it is a well accepted fact that your claims are true, it can not be very difficult to produce an adequate source for it.



You claimed something, now we are demanding proof and sources. This is completely legitimate and best practice since the 17th century.

And your best shot is linking to PWC... seriously? Sorry, but if you came up with such claims in one of my business meetings and provided nothing as a source except what is essentially an advert for PWC you would get torn apart. What's next? Discussing environmental issues based on what the shop assistant at a gas station told you? The site you linked to doesn't even contain any information about the current situation in Switzerland! I can not believe you can not do better than this!



Sorry, but if you want to play with adults you have to step up your game. This is not even high school niveau.
No, you have to be less arrogant and admit when a good point to the discussion has been made.
I don't know if you are aware, but arrogance is not convincing.

It is so NOT the Swiss style of debating. You are definitely not Swiss, I can tell from a mile.
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  #1328  
Old 13.12.2014, 20:34
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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The higher figures you quoted for later years are not fixed as you state; this was a proposal by the EU that was not accepted by Switzerland.
Was an ongoing negotiation that has now stalled due to this vote.
That is not entirely correct according to what I read in the Swiss news about the Federal Government even before the Feb 9 vote having been discussing whether or not to continue with Erasmus at all, after the EU dropped in saying they wanted almost 3 times the previously invested amount from Switzerland. Apparently all negotiations with the EU had already been fruitless before the vote even took place.

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Was-ueber-Erasmus-verschwiegen-wird/story/27932857
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Old 13.12.2014, 20:38
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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No, you have to be less arrogant and admit when a good point to the discussion has been made.
I don't know if you are aware, but arrogance is not convincing.

It is so NOT the Swiss style of debating. You are definitely not Swiss, I can tell from a mile.
While he may not be coming across as you might prefer, I do think he is making the valid point that simply stating something as being "hardly a secret" when being asked to backup one's claims with supporting material is also, in a sense, arrogance.

I would also like more than what was supplied by crazygringo - which amounted to basically nothing more than just stating that is was so.
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  #1330  
Old 13.12.2014, 20:39
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

If the Swiss cannot participate in Erasmus, then it implies that it will be harder for a Swiss student to go learn something at a European Uni that offers some subject or faculty expertise that Switzerland simply does not have. A simple example for me is Swiss going and studying EU law in Brussels and then coming back to work for the Swiss government, cos no matter what is the eventual MEI outcome, the EU will always be around to be dealt with.

All the Swiss Unis put together arent good at everything under the sun. As you go higher up the education ladder, the differences become greater between unis, and Erasmus really kicks off at the Masters level.

I find discussing rankings, especially between the top ten or twenty global universities, quite pointless, since the student experience in all of them tend to depend much more on the student than the institution.
Its usually a favorite pastime of those who actually havent studied in any of the universities they love to compare
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  #1331  
Old 13.12.2014, 20:46
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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If the Swiss cannot participate in Erasmus, then it implies that it will be harder for a Swiss student to go learn something at a European Uni that offers some subject or faculty expertise that Switzerland simply does not have. A simple example for me is Swiss going and studying EU law in Brussels and then coming back to work for the Swiss government, cos no matter what is the eventual MEI outcome, the EU will always be around to be dealt with.

All the Swiss Unis put together arent good at everything under the sun. As you go higher up the education ladder, the differences become greater between unis, and Erasmus really kicks off at the Masters level.

I find discussing rankings, especially between the top ten or twenty global universities, quite pointless, since the student experience in all of them tend to depend much more on the student than the institution.
Its usually a favorite pastime of those who actually havent studied in any of the universities they love to compare
As far as I have read, the main "pros" of Erasmus for Switzerland were things like easier access to all educational facilities throughout the EU member states and diverse multi-cultural interaction. However what is meant exactly by "easier access", I don't know. I also find it hard to believe that these things would not be possible without paying the EU for it ...

So what are the real-life benefits for the Swiss in Erasmus ... not sure ...
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  #1332  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:08
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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As far as I have read, the main "pros" of Erasmus for Switzerland were things like easier access to all educational facilities throughout the EU member states and diverse multi-cultural interaction. However what is meant exactly by "easier access", I don't know. I also find it hard to believe that these things would not be possible without paying the EU for it ...

So what are the real-life benefits for the Swiss in Erasmus ... not sure ...
Nobody said that it would not be possible to access EU universities without Erasmus, just that it gets a lot harder, in terms of out of pocket expenses for the students and administrative efforts to get course credits earned recognized, etc.

Guessing from your posts, you havent stepped outside Bern much, let alone attempt anything such as an exchange semester in an university outside CH.
Basically without an existing framework such as Erasmus, it is next to impossible to go and be allowed to take courses in another university, and have them count towards a degree.

Alternatively, it can be done through uni-uni direct agreements, but even ETHZ or EPFL will not have direct links to all unis that an ETHZ student might want to go and learn something else at. Its similar to having a single agreement with the EU instead of negotiating individual treaties with 27 countries for a dozen different topics. It would of course be "possible" to negotiate 27 treaties, but end up a lot more expensive and way more bureaucratic than the EU is.

Also, the money CH pays comes back to CH students as scholarships.

As for your reading, you need to pay more attention to substance over style. Yes, Erasmus needs PR, but it doesnt run on PR alone.
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  #1333  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:23
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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OK, so if perhaps the funding side of Erasmus+ is a bit of a downer for Switzerland, what are the benefits that we get in return, and would those benefits not be possible without Erasmus+?
About "is a bit of a downer for Switzerland"
Thank you for your conclusion Mr Chairman! Dare I ask for the source of your conclusion?

According to the posts by our esteemed colleague Urs Max; Switzerland pays around 10K per student in 2014 (28M for 3,000 students) whereas we would have to pay around six times this to study at Yale (or was it Harvard! )

Of course if you make two totally contradictory assumptions that
  1. EU budget in 2020 will be the same as in 2013
  2. Swiss contribution to Erasmus in 2020 will be treble the 2014 contribution
Then things do not look so good with such unrealistic assumptions.

If you make a more sensible assumption that the Bundesrat will continue to manage Swiss finances well then things do look good, in fact, great.

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As far as I have read, the main "pros" of Erasmus for Switzerland were things like easier access to all educational facilities throughout the EU member states and diverse multi-cultural interaction. However what is meant exactly by "easier access", I don't know. I also find it hard to believe that these things would not be possible without paying the EU for it ...

So what are the real-life benefits for the Swiss in Erasmus ... not sure ...
About "However what is meant exactly by "easier access", I don't know"

REALLY? !!

fmop, fmop, fmop!!

Without Erasmus and fmop then Swiss students would have to compete for a limited number of EU visas
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  #1334  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:33
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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That is not entirely correct according to what I read in the Swiss news about the Federal Government even before the Feb 9 vote having been discussing whether or not to continue with Erasmus at all, after the EU dropped in saying they wanted almost 3 times the previously invested amount from Switzerland. Apparently all negotiations with the EU had already been fruitless before the vote even took place.

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Was-ueber-Erasmus-verschwiegen-wird/story/27932857
About "all negotiations with the EU had already been fruitless "

This link confirms exactly what I wrote; the figure for 2020 which Urs Max quoted in several posts was never agreed by Switzerland.
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  #1335  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:49
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Nobody said that it would not be possible to access EU universities without Erasmus, just that it gets a lot harder, in terms of out of pocket expenses for the students and administrative efforts to get course credits earned recognized, etc.
"Eine direkte Finanzierung der Schweizer Studierenden könnte grundsätzlich weniger Kosten verursachen als die Assoziierung an solchen Programmen."

http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seit...ch_id=20143115

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Guessing from your posts, you havent stepped outside Bern much
Pretty bad at guessing then ...

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let alone attempt anything such as an exchange semester in an university outside CH.
This you are right in - never did that. (Was in Australia for 7 years)

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Basically without an existing framework such as Erasmus, it is next to impossible to go and be allowed to take courses in another university, and have them count towards a degree.

Alternatively, it can be done through uni-uni direct agreements, but even ETHZ or EPFL will not have direct links to all unis that an ETHZ student might want to go and learn something else at. Its similar to having a single agreement with the EU instead of negotiating individual treaties with 27 countries for a dozen different topics. It would of course be "possible" to negotiate 27 treaties, but end up a lot more expensive and way more bureaucratic than the EU is.
So at the end of the day it is possible to have a pretty decent equivalent solution without Erasmus but it would mean more money and more administration ... something like that!?
But I mean these big universities in Switzerland, don't they already have an extensive network of agreements and links to most, if not all the most sought-after universities in EU countries?

Or are there legal restrictions from the EU which make it impossible for universities in the EU to make agreements outside the Erasmus framework?

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Also, the money CH pays comes back to CH students as scholarships.
Again, that quote I posted above seems to say that it would be cheaper to directly fund Swiss students ...
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As for your reading, you need to pay more attention to substance over style. Yes, Erasmus needs PR, but it doesnt run on PR alone.
Not entirely sure what you mean by that ...
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  #1336  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:51
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "all negotiations with the EU had already been fruitless "

This link confirms exactly what I wrote; the figure for 2020 which Urs Max quoted in several posts was never agreed by Switzerland.
Erm ... while I am really happy for you ... what about the reason I quoted it!?
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  #1337  
Old 13.12.2014, 21:58
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Erm ... while I am really happy for you ... what about the reason I quoted it!?
Now I am supposed to guess your reasons for posting on a Saturday night?
One or none of the below
  • Nothing better to do
  • No beer money
  • girl friend cancelled
  • boy friend cancelled
  • Time to waste before the late night disco
  • Tidying up before a flight to somewhere warmer
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  #1338  
Old 13.12.2014, 22:09
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Pretty bad at guessing then ...
This you are right in - never did that. (Was in Australia for 7 years)
Ok, I stand corrected.

Makes me despair at a certain level in general though. Usually being abroad correlates with some open-mindedness ...

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So at the end of the day it is possible to have a pretty decent equivalent solution without Erasmus but it would mean more money and more administration ... something like that!?
Having a pretty decent equivalent solution with more money and more administration sounds good to you?? - Do you now secretly love the EU?

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But I mean these big universities in Switzerland, don't they already have an extensive network of agreements and links to most, if not all the most sought-after universities in EU countries?
Ummm ... NO ..not with all, and I say this from direct knowledge after spending four years at EPFL .. and who are you to decide for every ETH student, what is a sought after university for them. I know a Swiss student who was eager to go and do her thesis in materials at the University of Talinn.

You seem to like putting limits on what people should be allowed to do even more than your claims about what the EU limits

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Or are there legal restrictions from the EU which make it impossible for universities in the EU to make agreements outside the Erasmus framework?
No, there are no such prohibitions, please dont start another paranoid fantasy

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Again, that quote I posted above seems to say that it would be cheaper to directly fund Swiss students ...
Funding them directly would be useless if they cannot go to an EU university under Erasmus to begin with.

Last edited by Kosti; 13.12.2014 at 22:12. Reason: for clarity
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  #1339  
Old 13.12.2014, 22:17
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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About "is a bit of a downer for Switzerland"
Thank you for your conclusion Mr Chairman! Dare I ask for the source of your conclusion?
Sure - from the sound of previous posts it did not sound to be making much sense from a financial point of view - but ok, you and some others having been bouncing numbers back and forth, and it's quite frankly confusing now.
But then I read this: "Eine direkte Finanzierung der Schweizer Studierenden könnte grundsätzlich weniger Kosten verursachen als die Assoziierung an solchen Programmen." (http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seit...ch_id=20143115) and thought, "Well if the Federal Government thinks that direct funding would be more cost effective I guess that's pretty much that". Or!?

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According to the posts by our esteemed colleague Urs Max; Switzerland pays around 10K per student in 2014 (28M for 3,000 students) whereas we would have to pay around six times this to study at Yale (or was it Harvard! )
I don't really understand this.
If it's 28M for 3000 students per year - that comes to about 9300CHF per year, or 780CHF per month. So if we ask the question "is 780CHF per month enough for a student to live on", can't this only be answered depending on where the student lives in the EU? - What I don't really get is why all the comparison with Yale/Harvard ... ? Aren't these based in the USA? (The USA is not on the Erasmus program ... right!?)

Quote:
Of course if you make two totally contradictory assumptions that
  1. EU budget in 2020 will be the same as in 2013
  2. Swiss contribution to Erasmus in 2020 will be treble the 2014 contribution
Then things do not look so good with such unrealistic assumptions.
I don't think I ever did that ...

Quote:
If you make a more sensible assumption that the Bundesrat will continue to manage Swiss finances well then things do look good, in fact, great.
Well the Bundesrat had opting out of Erasmus on the table before the MEI vote ever took place - due to the EU's request for almost 3 times the investment from Switzerland. The Bundesrat may actually have been, in regards to the MEI going through, been a bit happy that the EU did what they did with Erasmus since it saved them from having to make the decision to withdraw from the program.

Quote:
About "However what is meant exactly by "easier access", I don't know"

REALLY? !!

fmop, fmop, fmop!!

Without Erasmus and fmop then Swiss students would have to compete for a limited number of EU visas
So if one withdraws from Erasmus they also loose FMOP!?
Also, I did not know that EU visas were limited ... and if Switzerland were without the FMOP would Swiss need a visa to enter the EU!?
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Old 13.12.2014, 22:36
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Re: Repercussions of Vote Already Starting...

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Sure - from the sound of previous posts it did not sound to be making much sense from a financial point of view - but ok, you and some others having been bouncing numbers back and forth, and it's quite frankly confusing now.
But then I read this: "Eine direkte Finanzierung der Schweizer Studierenden könnte grundsätzlich weniger Kosten verursachen als die Assoziierung an solchen Programmen." (http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seit...ch_id=20143115) and thought, "Well if the Federal Government thinks that direct funding would be more cost effective I guess that's pretty much that". Or!?



I don't really understand this.
If it's 28M for 3000 students per year - that comes to about 9300CHF per year, or 780CHF per month. So if we ask the question "is 780CHF per month enough for a student to live on", can't this only be answered depending on where the student lives in the EU? - What I don't really get is why all the comparison with Yale/Harvard ... ? Aren't these based in the USA? (The USA is not on the Erasmus program ... right!?)



I don't think I ever did that ...



Well the Bundesrat had opting out of Erasmus on the table before the MEI vote ever took place - due to the EU's request for almost 3 times the investment from Switzerland. The Bundesrat may actually have been, in regards to the MEI going through, been a bit happy that the EU did what they did with Erasmus since it saved them from having to make the decision to withdraw from the program.



So if one withdraws from Erasmus they also loose FMOP!?
Also, I did not know that EU visas were limited ... and if Switzerland were without the FMOP would Swiss need a visa to enter the EU!?
About "Well if the Federal Government thinks that direct funding would be more cost effective I guess that's pretty much that". "

I always thought "könnte" meant "could be" not "would be?

About " "is 780CHF per month enough for a student to live on"" that is an average number based on Swiss contribution to Erasmus, How much an actual Swiss student would receive as a scholarship would not be directly related to this 780CHF per month,

About "why all the comparison with Yale/Harvard" I have the same question?

About "without the FMOP would Swiss need a visa to enter the EU" To live/work/study the answer is yes. Ask any non-EU student in Switzerland about their visa!

About "I don't think I ever did that ..."
True; which is why I had written "According to the posts by our esteemed colleague Urs Max"!

About "you and some others having been bouncing numbers back and forth" True, but these are the number you asked for; problem is that no numbers are agreed for the years to 2020 so there are many different views around!
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erasmus, european union, fmop, horizon, immigration, masseneinwanderung, vote




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