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  #181  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:29
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Croatia doesn't come into it as Switzerland didn't sign the protocol to extend the Free Movement Agreement to them.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html
Croatia is a new member state and all other countries can delay the date from which Croatians have full access to their job market.
So Switzerland is not breaking any rule yet. The EU is flexible enough to let the Swiss take their time. But when the maximum delay is over without Croatians having full access to the Swiss job market, then we'll see if the EU will react.

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And everyone is supposed to wait for their permit (or at least register as being resident here) before starting work.


"Gainful employment of more than 3 months
Within 14 days of their arrival and before actually taking up work, nationals of EU-25/EFTA states have to register with the local authorities of the commune in which they are residing and apply for a residence permit."

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...hweiz/faq.html
Sorry, the text you are quoting proves you wrong.
We have to apply for it and the next moment we can start working.
As I said, the problem will be if the Swiss decide that we Europeans have to wait for the permit before starting working, because that would be against freedom of movement.
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  #182  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:35
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Schengen was a bad idea in my opinion.. countries lose control of their borders, hence why the UK didn't join.

In theory it works brilliantly and makes life easier for those in Europe with the right to be there. But in reality, as we now see, if certain countries don't do what they should do (Protect the Schengen/non-schengen border, process asylum seekers at point of entry etc) then the other countries can do nothing.

Either Schengen needs to go or everyone needs to get together and make it work properly.
They said Britain was f***ed if we wouldn't join Schengen.
They said Britain was f***ed if we wouldn't join the Euro.

Crying wolf anybody?
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  #183  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:37
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

Just from an outside point of view, look at South Africa's trends economically, exchange rates and stats like unemployment, crime etc. since the forming of the African union.


My personal opinion is that there may be some inconveniences involved in CH going their own way, but the Swiss will be protecting their futures and their economy by splitting.


Trade and commerce need to and will take place with or without free movement agreements.
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  #184  
Old 31.08.2015, 17:25
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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i don't even need a visa to travel to the US.
Me neither... all I have to do is to fill out all the info I normally enter into a visa form, tell the Americans that I am coming and get pre-approved for my non-visa entry in advance... and of course pay for the non-visa.

Common Phil, you know as well as me that the visa waiver program is 99% a visa, but nobody is allowed to call it what it is.
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  #185  
Old 31.08.2015, 19:00
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

Let's face it, with all this EU bureaucracy, nonsense laws and decisions from Brussels, and ridiculous border controls by countries such as Italy, partially cancelling these bilateral agreements may not be that bad for CH.
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  #186  
Old 31.08.2015, 20:35
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Croatia is a new member state and all other countries can delay the date from which Croatians have full access to their job market.
So Switzerland is not breaking any rule yet. The EU is flexible enough to let the Swiss take their time. But when the maximum delay is over without Croatians having full access to the Swiss job market, then we'll see if the EU will react.


Sorry, the text you are quoting proves you wrong.
We have to apply for it and the next moment we can start working.
As I said, the problem will be if the Swiss decide that we Europeans have to wait for the permit before starting working, because that would be against freedom of movement.
If Switzerland does not sign the protocol I doubt there's anything the EU can do about it. Switzerland has to sign an individual protocol with each country and it's up to them whether they decide to do that or not. As far as I know there's nothing in the Agreement that says they have to extend the right to new countries joining the EU. Still, given the delay in giving full access to the Bulgarians/Romanians (it's been going on like forever - iirc 2011 extended to 2013, then to 2016 and possibly longer) I suspect by the time 2019 comes around the whole Schengen thing will have fallen into dis-use or been revoked by Switzerland if not other Schengen countries. Don't forget they only have until February 2017 to sort out the curb EU immigration referendum mandate. Which if that happens will, yes, mean EU nationals will have to wait for approval of a permit before they can start working.
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  #187  
Old 31.08.2015, 21:00
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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If Switzerland does not sign the protocol I doubt there's anything the EU can do about it. Switzerland has to sign an individual protocol with each country and it's up to them whether they decide to do that or not. As far as I know there's nothing in the Agreement that says they have to extend the right to new countries joining the EU. Still, given the delay in giving full access to the Bulgarians/Romanians (it's been going on like forever - iirc 2011 extended to 2013, then to 2016 and possibly longer) I suspect by the time 2019 comes around the whole Schengen thing will have fallen into dis-use or been revoked by Switzerland if not other Schengen countries. Don't forget they only have until February 2017 to sort out the curb EU immigration referendum mandate. Which if that happens will, yes, mean EU nationals will have to wait for approval of a permit before they can start working.
Switzerland pays into the EU budget and extends the bilateral treaties to the new EU member states, just like full members, although each extension requires the approval of Swiss voters in a referendum.

The EU allows periods of up to five years in which EU member states can ignore freedom of movement for new countries. For example, EU countries with restrictions on Croatian workers are Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Spain, Slovenia and United Kingdom. They are expected to extend their restrictions at least until 2018.
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  #188  
Old 31.08.2015, 21:20
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I do agree that there are good reasons to salavage what is good about the bilaterals, but this sounds to me to be the most insignificant (if not comical) of them.
It is package deal, cherry picking is not an option.
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  #189  
Old 31.08.2015, 21:30
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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If Switzerland does not sign the protocol I doubt there's anything the EU can do about it. Switzerland has to sign an individual protocol with each country and it's up to them whether they decide to do that or not. As far as I know there's nothing in the Agreement that says they have to extend the right to new countries joining the EU.
Well then if you take the time to read the documents you'll be amazed at what you will find. And honestly at this point I could not be bothered digging the up yet again.
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  #190  
Old 31.08.2015, 21:50
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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If Switzerland does not sign the protocol I doubt there's anything the EU can do about it. Switzerland has to sign an individual protocol with each country and it's up to them whether they decide to do that or not. As far as I know there's nothing in the Agreement that says they have to extend the right to new countries joining the EU. Still, given the delay in giving full access to the Bulgarians/Romanians (it's been going on like forever - iirc 2011 extended to 2013, then to 2016 and possibly longer) I suspect by the time 2019 comes around the whole Schengen thing will have fallen into dis-use or been revoked by Switzerland if not other Schengen countries. Don't forget they only have until February 2017 to sort out the curb EU immigration referendum mandate. Which if that happens will, yes, mean EU nationals will have to wait for approval of a permit before they can start working.
You're mixing up the Schengen treaty (open borders for travellers) with Freedom of Movement for workers.
Please check out the relevant Wikipedia articles. I'd provide links but I'm on my phone.
An easy rule of thumb: Britain is not in Schengen but is 100% part of the Freedom of Movement treaty (though not happy about it).
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  #191  
Old 31.08.2015, 22:35
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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You're mixing up the Schengen treaty (open borders for travellers) with Freedom of Movement for workers.
Please check out the relevant Wikipedia articles. I'd provide links but I'm on my phone.
An easy rule of thumb: Britain is not in Schengen but is 100% part of the Freedom of Movement treaty (though not happy about it).
As each protocol has to be approved by a Swiss referendum I'm not mixing up anything. Why do you think the signing of the Croatian Free Movement protocol was halted? The Swiss voted to curb immigration from the EU, hence the government could no longer sign the protocol. Nor is there any date in the future yet when they will do so. There is no transitional period for the free movement of Croatians to Switzerland because there's no protocol in place to grant this.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html
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  #192  
Old 31.08.2015, 23:22
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Well then if you take the time to read the documents you'll be amazed at what you will find. And honestly at this point I could not be bothered digging the up yet again.
So time to dump it all, and rightly so-

Tom
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  #193  
Old 31.08.2015, 23:29
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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As each protocol has to be approved by a Swiss referendum I'm not mixing up anything. Why do you think the signing of the Croatian Free Movement protocol was halted? The Swiss voted to curb immigration from the EU, hence the government could no longer sign the protocol. Nor is there any date in the future yet when they will do so. There is no transitional period for the free movement of Croatians to Switzerland because there's no protocol in place to grant this.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html
I'm sorry that you refuse to even consider the possibility of having mixed up two different things (closely related, but different).
In post 186 you are obviously talking about the access of Romanians and Bulgarians to the job market and out of the blue you write that "the whole Schengen thing will have fallen into dis-use". There's no whole Schengen thing, there are two different things. A resident of the UK (not necessarily a British citizen) has to go through passport control in order to go to Switzerland and vice versa, while residents of France don't have to, regardless of their nationality. This is Schengen. Nothing to do with staying and working abroad.
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  #194  
Old 01.09.2015, 09:19
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I'm sorry that you refuse to even consider the possibility of having mixed up two different things (closely related, but different).
In post 186 you are obviously talking about the access of Romanians and Bulgarians to the job market and out of the blue you write that "the whole Schengen thing will have fallen into dis-use". There's no whole Schengen thing, there are two different things. A resident of the UK (not necessarily a British citizen) has to go through passport control in order to go to Switzerland and vice versa, while residents of France don't have to, regardless of their nationality. This is Schengen. Nothing to do with staying and working abroad.
Yes, okay I did mix the terms up. But if Schengen falls apart can you see the Free Movement continuing? I can't. If borders get closed due to the current migration crisis how many countries do you think will continue with the Free Movement Agreement? Switzerland won't at the moment anyway due to the recent vote and UK is looking to get out of Europe too. How many others will join them given that granting asylum in one country seems to allow migrants to wander over the rest of Europe even when they're not supposed to? And that's just those who have bothered to apply! Most haven't until they reach their "desired" destination.
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  #195  
Old 01.09.2015, 09:38
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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As each protocol has to be approved by a Swiss referendum I'm not mixing up anything. Why do you think the signing of the Croatian Free Movement protocol was halted? The Swiss voted to curb immigration from the EU, hence the government could no longer sign the protocol. Nor is there any date in the future yet when they will do so. There is no transitional period for the free movement of Croatians to Switzerland because there's no protocol in place to grant this.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html
Only that is not the fully story.... After we refused to sign the protocol the EU did respond by freezing grants to Switzerland for the Erasmus educational exchange programme and for research projects. Which lead to the 'Gentlemen's agreement' we now have on Croatia.
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  #196  
Old 01.09.2015, 10:23
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Only that is not the fully story.... After we refused to sign the protocol the EU did respond by freezing grants to Switzerland for the Erasmus educational exchange programme and for research projects. Which lead to the 'Gentlemen's agreement' we now have on Croatia.
True, but what it only did was give them separate quota numbers from the general quotas they were already under didn't it? And until Switzerland changes the result of the vote there's no possibility of them being granted full free movement.

Even Merkel's admitting that Schengen may have to be dropped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-suggests.html

So where would that leave the Free Movement Agreement?
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  #197  
Old 01.09.2015, 10:50
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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So where would that leave the Free Movement Agreement?
FMOP has little to do with border controls, if at all. FMOP means that people don't need a visa, and can enter and stay in any member country for up to three months whenever they so chose.
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  #198  
Old 01.09.2015, 19:12
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Yes, okay I did mix the terms up. But if Schengen falls apart can you see the Free Movement continuing? I can't. If borders get closed due to the current migration crisis how many countries do you think will continue with the Free Movement Agreement? Switzerland won't at the moment anyway due to the recent vote and UK is looking to get out of Europe too. How many others will join them given that granting asylum in one country seems to allow migrants to wander over the rest of Europe even when they're not supposed to? And that's just those who have bothered to apply! Most haven't until they reach their "desired" destination.
The fact I corrected the terminology does not mean I necessarily disagree with you, I just wanted to make sure you are not mixing up arguments about Schengen with arguments about Freedom of Movement for workers.
I am certainly not happy at all with what is going on in Brussels and they way some bureaucrats are handling many issues, Greece (my home country) included.
This is why I was hoping that a BREXIT next year would provide the necessary shock that would set the things back on the right track, but it looks like the Brits will decide to stay. So once again the establishment in Brussels will congratulate itself about how amazing they all are and will continue to receive their fat salaries for not offering any service to the European people.

That being said, I personally see both Schengen and the Freedom of Movement for workers as definitely good things because they serve the European Communities' original goal which was to make sure that there will be no more wars between its members.
Unfortunately populist politicians like Mrs May in the UK find it easier to blame their incompetence on the Spaniard and Italian emigrants in the UK (and not so much the Greeks because we are a smaller group ).
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Old 01.09.2015, 20:06
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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True, but what it only did was give them separate quota numbers from the general quotas they were already under didn't it? And until Switzerland changes the result of the vote there's no possibility of them being granted full free movement.

Even Merkel's admitting that Schengen may have to be dropped.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-suggests.html

So where would that leave the Free Movement Agreement?
And once again, Schengen and FMA are not remotely close to being the same thing... If the members ever agree to changes in the FMA it will come at a great cost for some countries as the contributions to the structural funds will have to be increased dramatically in order for the eastern countries to sign up.
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Old 01.09.2015, 21:20
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

If Schengen is temporarily frozen in a stupid attempt to block the refugees traveling through Europe, this will be completely irrelevant to the freedom of Europeans to work in Europe (including Switzerland).
This is part of why I insisted on correct terminology.
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