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  #41  
Old 25.07.2014, 12:56
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Secondly, Switzerland has too many ways to retaliate. If Italian trade lost access to the Gotthard it would effectively lose access to the ports of Rotterdam and Hamburg. That would be bad for both Italy and Germany.
We are talking about free movement of people. Closing the the Gotthard as a transit route is a magnitude larger and you are not seriously believing this would ever happen, do you? That would be close to an economic war declaration. Some EU countries already don't really like the Swiss approach of having a cake and eating it. In case they'd pull a stunt like this would I move my CHF to Luxembourg ;-)

P.S> Looking at my map with is bigger than planet Switzerland does it have some alternative route called Brenner...

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The EU of today has gone through some pretty tough stress tests. For example the euro crisis that basically ended up with the German taxpayer bailing out the Mediterranean countries. The German taxpayer grumbled quite a bit about that but ended up re-electing Merkel anyway.
So how much did the German economy really suffer from the crisis? Looks to me as if the Dax is on an all-time high and people are doing pretty well in Germany as the low Euro gave them a massive advantage over other exporters as say Switzerland. (The people who really lost in the crisis are the people living in countries like Greece as the crunch limited their social systems, health care and what not else to 3rd world country standards. Not that I really feel sorry for them - they keep on electing governments that do not enforce their own tax system...)
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  #42  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:07
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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(This is btw the reason why Germany buys tax fraud CDs: every single rule will apply on German/European territory the way it stands on paper and foreign discussions won't change that, hence Germany don't mind the Swiss discussing the legality of the CD buys as long as the CD is in Berlin.)
I don't know if the last word has been spoken on this yet.

The Germans are presently pretty upset that the Americans have been spying on them, and their tabloids are going into overdrive in expressing their indignation over that. These are the same tabloids that just some moths ago were telling their readers that it was okay to spy on the Swiss. There are only so many knots you can tie yourself into before you have to face the music.

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Back to topic: The Swiss must understand that a signed paper is not valueless. Frankly, the parliament in Bern understands that very well - Somaruga/Burkhalter agree totally with the EU on an institutional & technical level
I think this is the problem. You can't stand up for your point of view by beginning every argument with "I know this is wrong but ..."

This is not the first time that different laws and agreements have contradicted one another. In fact there are probably hunderds of contradictions on the statute books not just in Switzerland but in every country. This is why you need a lawyer to understand the law and its interpretation. The normal procedure is to get on with life as if nothing happened and let the courts decide which law has precedence in individual cases. The new law requires quotas to be set but does not specify how high those quotes should be. If the quotas are set sufficiently high, those individual cases may not even ever arise, and if they do they can be dealt with when we get there. Everything else is a storm in teacup.
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  #43  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:14
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Of course it's nonsense. But so it is nonsense that Switzerland will suddenly find itself unable to export to the EU.
Don't be absurd, nobody talked about a freaking embargo.

It's just going to get more expensive money- and time-wise.
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  #44  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:22
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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- Somaruga/Burkhalter agree totally with the EU on an institutional & technical level - and this is also the reason why they have no idea what proposition to submit to the EU in order to clean up the mess that an internal political debate created outside of its political territory. .
In the past the honorable thing to do when you're asked to implement something you strongly disagree with is to step down. It's all this wanting one thing while saying another game that led to this backlash in the first place.
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  #45  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:35
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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This is not the first time that different laws and agreements have contradicted one another.
Laws yes, state treaties no. Not the same scale at all and even if one is happy with contradictions, EU doesn't want to import this contradiction. We can't blame them (I am EU in EU, so I should write "you can't blame us").

I agree about the "storm in the cup" part, because the EU is perfectly aware of the fact that the Swiss will end up asking the EU for favours, the interest of pleasing Switzerland being reduced to practicalities (transport, local interests in border regions). Swiss must understand that the EU wants to kill totally Switzerland as a financial center. London wants monopoly position on the continent, Germany wants tax money, smaller countries want to be better holding paradises than Switzerland (Ireland, Latvia, Danmark, Netherlands, Cyprus etc.) so that at the end, most EU countries have interest to wind up Swiss own contradictions and enjoy the show. If you remember Mörgeli in Anne Will's talkshow, you know what I mean. Famous quote: "Denken Sie überhaupt mit, Herr Mörgeli?" - Not all Switzerland was meant by that, but definitely this Switzerland that provoked the situation. Are Germans/EU arrogant? Probably, but one can be arrogant and right.
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  #46  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:49
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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There are 715.000 Swiss living abroad. 60% of those in the EU... without bilaterals would they be treated like any other non-EU foreigner in Europe - which would cause quite some issues for them I guess for their employment all the way to permit situation.

No but if the Ecopop initiative is passed that might be interpreted into making it difficult for the 715.000 Swiss to come back
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  #47  
Old 25.07.2014, 13:53
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Laws yes, state treaties no. Not the same scale at all and even if one is happy with contradictions, EU doesn't want to import this contradiction. We can't blame them (I am EU in EU, so I should write "you can't blame us").

I agree about the "storm in the cup" part, because the EU is perfectly aware of the fact that the Swiss will end up asking the EU for favours, the interest of pleasing Switzerland being reduced to practicalities (transport, local interests in border regions). Swiss must understand that the EU wants to kill totally Switzerland as a financial center. London wants monopoly position on the continent, Germany wants tax money, smaller countries want to be better holding paradises than Switzerland (Ireland, Latvia, Danmark, Netherlands, Cyprus etc.) so that at the end, most EU countries have interest to wind up Swiss own contradictions and enjoy the show. If you remember Mörgeli in Anne Will's talkshow, you know what I mean. Famous quote: "Denken Sie überhaupt mit, Herr Mörgeli?" - Not all Switzerland was meant by that, but definitely this Switzerland that provoked the situation. Are Germans/EU arrogant? Probably, but one can be arrogant and right.
"the EU wants to kill totally Switzerland as a financial center" It's this kind of war rhetoric that you read all the time in the press. The typical attitude of a spoilt kid that had it too good for too long, benefiting of all kind of competitive advantages (banking secrecy to name one) other countries did not have. It's time to grow up I would say.
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  #48  
Old 25.07.2014, 14:02
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Laws yes, state treaties no. Not the same scale at all and even if one is happy with contradictions, EU doesn't want to import this contradiction. We can't blame them (I am EU in EU, so I should write "you can't blame us").

I agree about the "storm in the cup" part, because the EU is perfectly aware of the fact that the Swiss will end up asking the EU for favours, the interest of pleasing Switzerland being reduced to practicalities (transport, local interests in border regions). Swiss must understand that the EU wants to kill totally Switzerland as a financial center. London wants monopoly position on the continent, Germany wants tax money, smaller countries want to be better holding paradises than Switzerland (Ireland, Latvia, Danmark, Netherlands, Cyprus etc.) so that at the end, most EU countries have interest to wind up Swiss own contradictions and enjoy the show. If you remember Mörgeli in Anne Will's talkshow, you know what I mean. Famous quote: "Denken Sie überhaupt mit, Herr Mörgeli?" - Not all Switzerland was meant by that, but definitely this Switzerland that provoked the situation. Are Germans/EU arrogant? Probably, but one can be arrogant and right.
I agree that rivalry with Switzerland and wanting to damage Switzerland is at least part of the EU's game. I never watched Anne Will as I can't stand that type of talk show, and that is one of the reasons I don't have a tv any more. I don't believe Germany is just after lost taxes, but that it effectively wants to strengthen German banks by making things difficult for Swiss banks wanting to reach out to German customers. For example there was a time that Swiss banks were lending money to German customers at Swiss interest rates which was putting German banks at a severe disadvantage and anybody who claims the tax espionage story was not at least in part retaliation is being very naive. Similarly the blocking of the flight paths to Zurich was just being childish on the
part of Germany and seeking to wind up the Swiss. So the EU and it's members are not purely motivated to do the best thing for everybody but are seeking to protect and strengthen the interests of its member countries, if necessary by writing the rules to suit their own agenda and that of the lobbyists rather than to be as fair as possible.

So in view of this, it is only understandable and legitimate that Switzerland doesn't just nod it's head and accept all the EUs rulings and inventions but negotiates back as toughly as it can. And many people here think the Bundesrat is being too soft on the EU. I do think the SVP knew what it was doing as they are not the bunch to blindly run down a dead end alley but always have some ulterior strategy behind their apparent madness. I believe the SVP was not primarily trying to damage the EU but trying to damage the Bundesrat and government and force them to come clean over whose side they are on. Whether or not that was achieved is a matter of perspective. But the Bundesrat, if they remain unwilling to confront the EU, must either find some way to declare the vote invalid, which would be a free propganda point for the SVP, or must force a repeat of the vote, with the risk that they might lose a second time.
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  #49  
Old 25.07.2014, 14:02
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Are Germans/EU arrogant? Probably, but one can be arrogant and right.
One can also be right without being arrogant.
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Old 25.07.2014, 14:04
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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"... It's time to grow up I would say.
And that would mean that Switzerland should accept and deal with the consequences, whatever it is...
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  #51  
Old 25.07.2014, 14:09
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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One can also be right without being arrogant.
Indeed, but if you're a German politician, it's not a combination that comes naturally.

At least not if you're in one of the big parties.
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  #52  
Old 25.07.2014, 14:37
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

The SVP seem to be keeping an unusually low profile of late Its almost as if they didn't think it would get this far, but now it has they could be blamed for e.g. specialist companies downsizing or leaving Switzerland altogether along with 000s of jobs.
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  #53  
Old 25.07.2014, 15:00
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

Idiots . it would be almsot funny if it was not so stupid and tragic
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  #54  
Old 25.07.2014, 15:10
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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The SVP seem to be keeping an unusually low profile of late Its almost as if they didn't think it would get this far, but now it has they could be blamed for e.g. specialist companies downsizing or leaving Switzerland altogether along with 000s of jobs.
I don't have the impression they're keeping a low profile right now. In fact I can see several issues brewing all of which will give the SVP plenty of opportunity to throw in their weight. They still have plenty of drums to beat on issues such paedophilia, taxation, healthcare, the media etc. And they never pass over a good opportunity, do they?

I think on the EU issue they're waiting to see who comes out on top so they know who to attack next.
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Old 25.07.2014, 15:23
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

There was an interview with Blocher in NZZ yesterday and he still claims that the EU is contractually obliged to renegotiate.
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  #56  
Old 25.07.2014, 15:32
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I don't have the impression they're keeping a low profile right now. In fact I can see several issues brewing all of which will give the SVP plenty of opportunity to throw in their weight. They still have plenty of drums to beat on issues such paedophilia, taxation, healthcare, the media etc. And they never pass over a good opportunity, do they?

I think on the EU issue they're waiting to see who comes out on top so they know who to attack next.
My barometer of SVP activity is 'nasty posters', ain't seen many of them around recently
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Old 25.07.2014, 15:53
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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So?

They should have voted then.

Tom
or people should have made their homework, as stated from before the voting, there is no way in hell that Switzerland can keep the bilateral agreement and not sticking to the free movement…people assumed that (because SVP said so ) that EU would renegotiate, and many believed them...:roll eyes:

what we see now is an even greater immigration waves to Switzerland thanks to this initiative…good job I say

and blaming the EU for all this is even more pitiful...
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Old 25.07.2014, 15:55
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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There was an interview with Blocher in NZZ yesterday and he still claims that the EU is contractually obliged to renegotiate.
Blocher is truly delusional! ….time to step back and stop ruining it further...
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Old 25.07.2014, 15:59
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

I believe that Bundsrat will come to this conclusions and proposals:

1. EU will not renegotiate

2. If Switzerland cancel the free movement the Bilaterals will be as well

3. Ie a new initiative/voting about the Bilaterals incl. free movement
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Old 25.07.2014, 16:02
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It's already established that existing permit holders will not be affected by any changes to the bilaterals.
…for now...
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