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  #61  
Old 25.07.2014, 16:24
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I believe that Bundsrat will come to this conclusions and proposals:

1. EU will not renegotiate

2. If Switzerland cancel the free movement the Bilaterals will be as well

3. Ie a new initiative/voting about the Bilaterals incl. free movement
Switzerland cannot unilaterally vote an international agreement. So they would have to renegotiate. Therefore if point 3, then not point 1 . Or if points 1 and 3, then not point 2 . Oder?
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  #62  
Old 25.07.2014, 16:55
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It's time to grow up I would say.
Why do you think London wants Switzerland on the list of tax fraud paradises but not Jersey&co ?
I personally couldn't care less where the Russians have their money washed, London will do fine, it tends to be Latvia nowadays after the Cyprus crisis. It could be Switzerland, wouldn't make a difference in my world. But it does make a difference to the banks who make money out of it so yes, it matters a lot to London (and Riga) like it has mattered for decades to Bern, Vaduz and Andorra. It's only a small part of the EU/CH issue, I admit that, but central to some people. Tax evasion is the only issue with the Germans, they don't have a financial center to set up against Zürich and Geneva. London has. Different interest, same result: EU countries don't mind Switzerland getting a bit nervous about its future.
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  #63  
Old 25.07.2014, 17:05
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Why do you think London wants Switzerland on the list of tax fraud paradises but not Jersey&co ?
I personally couldn't care less where the Russians have their money washed, London will do fine, it tends to be Latvia nowadays after the Cyprus crisis. It could be Switzerland, wouldn't make a difference in my world. But it does make a difference to the banks who make money out of it so yes, it matters a lot to London (and Riga) like it has mattered for decades to Bern, Vaduz and Andorra. It's only a small part of the EU/CH issue, I admit that, but central to some people. Tax evasion is the only issue with the Germans, they don't have a financial center to set up against Zürich and Geneva. London has. Different interest, same result: EU countries don't mind Switzerland getting a bit nervous about its future.
In the bigger picture of things, I dont even think for a big economy like Germany that a handful of people evading taxes is causing that much hurt. It's more a matter of principle thing. Nobody likes to be made a fool of. And of course it's far easier to beat the drum over Switzerland than it is to talk about Jersey or Delaware, let alone threaten the respective governments.
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  #64  
Old 25.07.2014, 17:06
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

No one wants to see Switzerland in troubles, that is quite a strange claim.

Switzerland should be in charge of the EU actually, it would work much better as people like Buckhalter can handle extremely difficult situations much better than other politicians. It seems to be in the Swiss culture.
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  #65  
Old 25.07.2014, 17:21
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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No one wants to see Switzerland in troubles, that is quite a strange claim.
Not in trouble, you're absolutely right in my eyes too. But given the fact that the EU are not the ones who put Switzerland in trouble but a referendum procedure of internal political nature, the EU doesn't want to clean up a mess that is foreign to them. In that, the EU respect Swiss sovereignty scrupulously.
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Old 25.07.2014, 17:36
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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No personal diss, but if you can be bought so easily, then maybe democracy is not your thing
isn't democracy now pretty much about buying votes. whether it is voting for more welfare for yourself, or voting for tax cuts that benefit you.

the politicians and voters that look towards the long term strength of the country versus their own self-interest are few and far between.
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  #67  
Old 25.07.2014, 17:46
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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the politicians and voters that look towards the long term strength of the country versus their own self-interest are few and far between.
they are out there, people just don't vote for them
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  #68  
Old 25.07.2014, 18:43
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Why do you think London wants Switzerland on the list of tax fraud paradises but not Jersey&co ?
I personally couldn't care less where the Russians have their money washed, London will do fine, it tends to be Latvia nowadays after the Cyprus crisis. It could be Switzerland, wouldn't make a difference in my world. But it does make a difference to the banks who make money out of it so yes, it matters a lot to London (and Riga) like it has mattered for decades to Bern, Vaduz and Andorra. It's only a small part of the EU/CH issue, I admit that, but central to some people. Tax evasion is the only issue with the Germans, they don't have a financial center to set up against Zürich and Geneva. London has. Different interest, same result: EU countries don't mind Switzerland getting a bit nervous about its future.
Maybe because Jersey is moving to automatic exchange of tax information for EU residents?
http://www.jerseyfinance.je/news/jer...e#.U9J5vbH4T6M

I am not claiming that the rest of the world is holier than the pope but Switzerland plays in a different league altogether than the likes of Andorra or Seychelles.
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  #69  
Old 25.07.2014, 18:47
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Maybe because Jersey is moving to automatic exchange of tax information for EU residents?
.
There is always another island somewhere in the Commonwealth for the EU citizens and the big money washing is not from EU citizens.
Switzerland used to be loved by all kind of money cuddling people, there are more comfortable armchair to sit in elsewhere nowadays.
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Old 25.07.2014, 19:07
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Maybe because Jersey is moving to automatic exchange of tax information for EU residents?
http://www.jerseyfinance.je/news/jer...e#.U9J5vbH4T6M

I am not claiming that the rest of the world is holier than the pope but Switzerland plays in a different league altogether than the likes of Andorra or Seychelles.
This interview is somewhat related:
http://www.woz.ch/1428/steuerhinterz...undlich-bitten

There seems to be kind of division of work between the different "tax havens". If you want to hide lots of money (meaning a couple of millions) you cannot just open a bank account and depose the money there. This only worked for medium wealth (at least for people from OECD countries it does no longer work). What you do, if you want to hide lots of money is to fund some bogus company or trust or something. This you do not in Switzerland, because in that area Switzerland has quite strict laws. To do that you go to places like Jersey, Panama or Delaware. In the end a lot of that money ends up in Switzerland, too, but its extremely hypocritical if say the UK or the USA attack Switzerland on this issue, while Jersey and Delaware are actually key players in the tax evasion business.
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  #71  
Old 25.07.2014, 19:18
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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When I first came to Switzerland there wasn't yet Schengen and there weren't a whole load of other things but I don't recall life being much worse and I got my work permit all the same as did many others. If we are genuinely moving back to that situation...
But the thing is we are not moving back to that situation, because the rest of the world has moved on and as they say you can never go back. The reality is that we had far more negotiating power in the past than we have today. And the EU was a far simpler organisation to do a deal with.

We got a very good deal at the time and one that we would not get today because even the decision process is now different within the EU, at a very minimum you need the agreement of the Commission, the Council of Ministers and the EU Parliament. The last two are political representatives and expecting them to agree to anything that would disadvantage their voters is a very big ask!

The other thing to keep in mind is that the US and the EU is currently negotiating a trade deal, if that comes off (which I expect it will) then we could very well find ourselves in a situation where we do not have preferential access to two of our biggest markets... We are a small open economy that is highly dependent on trade, the last thing we need is an isolationist policy.
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  #72  
Old 25.07.2014, 19:19
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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There is always another island somewhere in the Commonwealth for the EU citizens and the big money washing is not from EU citizens.
Switzerland used to be loved by all kind of money cuddling people, there are more comfortable armchair to sit in elsewhere nowadays.
Anyway, I wonder how many real jobs this type of thing genuinely creates.
I think damage to industry, or normal banking for that matter, would have more far reaching consequences.
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  #73  
Old 25.07.2014, 19:30
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Even if all treaties and agreements were reset to zero, I have difficulty imagining a scenario where there wouldn't be some negotiation to get at least the important stuff regulated on a bilateral basis.
The EU council of ministers just rejected the Swiss government's request to renegotiate the bilateral by consensus, without discussion or a vote... So who do you think we are going to negotiate with and what bargaining chips do we have that would give is sway?

The EU has made it very clear all along that we either keep the bilateral agreement we have or we apply for full membership. I do not expect their position will change in the coming months, if for no other reason than we are very low on their list of priorities, they have lots of other more pressing issues such as the situation in the Ukraine and the trade negotiations with the US just to mention two.
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Old 25.07.2014, 19:42
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It's already established that existing permit holders will not be affected by any changes to the bilaterals.
Most of us think in terms of the work permits, but there are far more important elements to the agreement. Such at the right of the financial services sector to freely sell it's financial products in the EU, the right of manufacturers to quote on EU and EU State contracts and be treated the same as EU firms in such competitive bids, the simplified process of the certification of various products and so on.

The reality is that if firms find that being Swiss based restricts their access to the EU market, then they will simply move or expand their operations at a location within the EU and the jobs here will go, along with the corporate and income taxes associated with those operations.
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Old 25.07.2014, 19:57
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I wouldn't like to be giving out wagers that in 20 years time there will still be a strong EU in its present form.
Every since 1974 I have been hearing from the British press in particular how the EEC/EU/Euro is doomed and it will not last. But the reality it has gone through many different crises over the years and it is still here and more integrated than before. So I think it is about time that people accepted that the commitment of the EU States to the EU is far stronger that some of us would like to believe.

The Euro crises did not cause the Euroland countries to split, in fact the opposite it brought them closer together in that they realised that they need to better coordinate their affairs, for example the finance committees of the parliaments in various Euroland states are now required to review each other's budget plans, economic growth plans and so on.

In 20 years time I think it is possible there will be a two tier EU: Euroland plus the rest, for the simple reason that there is no realistic way for reversing a decision to join the Euro.
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  #76  
Old 25.07.2014, 20:02
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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So, if EU countries now start applying punitive tariffs because of the free trade agreement going with the free movement agreement, you will start to see Swiss jobs going away.
The EU will not apply punitive tariffs, they do not have to, we will do that all by ourselves. Once we walk away from the bilateral we will find ourselves in the same queue as all other third countries and we will have to pay the normal tariffs etc....
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  #77  
Old 25.07.2014, 20:14
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I have difficulty imagining that the EU would impose punitive duties on Swiss exports for any meaningful length of time........
Starting a trade war with one of the world's economic superpowers would be a very stupid thing to do, because there will only be one winner - the superpower. Almost all the raw materials we need for manufacturing are imported through the EU and all of our exports go out through the EU for starters... they could probably close us down in a month if they really set their minds to it.
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  #78  
Old 25.07.2014, 20:29
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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But so it is nonsense that Switzerland will suddenly find itself unable to export to the EU.
No one said that the will not be able to export to the EU. But it is most certainly not nonsense to say that once we walk away from the bilateral agreement that we will have preferential access to that market on the same terms as we do now. And given that we already have a high cost base to start with, adding tariffs and red tape to it will not do much for our ability to compete. Not to mention things like product certification and so on...
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Old 25.07.2014, 20:35
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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The new law requires quotas to be set but does not specify how high those quotes should be.
You've have fallen for the SVP slight of hand! The big problem is that the vote also requires us to renegotiate the bilateral agreement within the next 3 years... and that is not likely to happen at this stage.
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Old 25.07.2014, 22:39
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

...Yeah...actually...big question.... if what requested in the referendum proves impossible due to circumstances... what happens?
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