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  #161  
Old 30.08.2015, 12:42
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Yes, and hopefully SOON!

Tom
BTW, why this emoticon of disgust?
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  #162  
Old 30.08.2015, 13:00
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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The EU is not and has not threatened to cancel the agreements. Our actions and ours alone will determine the outcome, if we ignore the rules of the agreement then the the domino effect will be that the agreements fall. And even if the agreements do fall the EU will do nothing different in order for us to see the impact, they will simply apply their standard third country rules that is all, because that is position we will have placed ourselves in.
Agreed. In the end it is a simple weighing up the advantages vs the disadvantages of the bilaterals. The conclusion (from the referendum) is that it is better to get rid of the bilaterals.
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  #163  
Old 30.08.2015, 13:02
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Those will be interesting times for sure.
The turning point will be when Switzerland will have to lift the quotas on Romanians, Bulgarians and (separately) Croatians. Will it happen?
Or when they tell a French or German national that he has to wait for the permit before starting work.
For Bulgarians and Romanians it's currently scheduled for end of May 2016, but could be extended to 2019 under the Agreement which is what I expect the Swiss will do while they're still sorting out the immigration vote issue.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html

Croatia doesn't come into it as Switzerland didn't sign the protocol to extend the Free Movement Agreement to them.

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...r_schweiz.html

And everyone is supposed to wait for their permit (or at least register as being resident here) before starting work.

"Gainful employment of more than 3 months
Within 14 days of their arrival and before actually taking up work, nationals of EU-25/EFTA states have to register with the local authorities of the commune in which they are residing and apply for a residence permit."

https://www.bfm.admin.ch/bfm/en/home...hweiz/faq.html
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  #164  
Old 30.08.2015, 14:05
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Agreed. In the end it is a simple weighing up the advantages vs the disadvantages of the bilaterals. The conclusion (from the referendum) is that it is better to get rid of the bilaterals.
although 75% of the Swiss are pro bilateral (most of the people voting pro MEI didn't have any clue which consequences it will have, just the same emotional "foreigners are the blame for everything what not good is" although the Swiss themselves voted for the bilateral incl. free movement)

This MEI initiative should have been about keeping the bilateral or not but SVP knew that it wouldn't stayed a chance
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  #165  
Old 30.08.2015, 14:09
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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although 75% of the Swiss are pro bilateral (most of the people voting pro MEI didn't have any clue which consequences it will have, just the same emotional "foreigners are the blame for everything what not good is" although the Swiss themselves voted for the bilateral incl. free movement)

This MEI initiative should have been about keeping the bilateral or not but SVP knew that it wouldn't stayed a chance
It was clearly rejected around here, and no-one that I know is in favor of the bilaterals.

Tom
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  #166  
Old 30.08.2015, 14:21
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It was clearly rejected around here, and no-one that I know is in favor of the bilaterals.

Tom

What both of them?
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  #167  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:37
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Agreed. In the end it is a simple weighing up the advantages vs the disadvantages of the bilaterals. The conclusion (from the referendum) is that it is better to get rid of the bilaterals.
Well that is one interpretation of it, but many would argue that the did not realise what was at stake.... time will tell. But one thing we need to be very clear about is that there is no going back, once broken it will not be undone.
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  #168  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:42
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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This MEI initiative should have been about keeping the bilateral or not but SVP knew that it wouldn't stayed a chance
I blame the other parties for not making an issue out of it. They need to wake up and go after the SVP on all fronts, otherwise they have only themselves to blame for the outcome.
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  #169  
Old 30.08.2015, 15:51
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

Why do you bother with this subject? I'm sure most of us on EF have already at least the B permit by now.
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  #170  
Old 31.08.2015, 11:30
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Why do you bother with this subject? I'm sure most of us on EF have already at least the B permit by now.
Because it does not only affect Europeans in Switzerland on an L permit but any non-EU forum member regardless of his permit: If CH leaves Schengen will any non-EU person living here need a Schengen visa to visit any neighbour country - yes, even for that supermarket trip to Waldshut or Konstanz.

I remember vividly the waiting lines in front of the German embassy in Bern pre-Schengen. 90% were Turks and people from former Yugoslavia living in CH and having their C already... the line on a normal weekday was so long it went out of the building and onto the street. Schengen visa rules for "thrid countries" are quite stringent... and I have honestly seen a Swiss guy completely losing it and shouting around in the embassy when his Thai girl was rejected as he did not have his papers in order. I personally really don't need that again once a year to renew the wife's visa...

Bottom line: the Swiss voted on topic a) Bulgaria and Romania but in effect will get changes in topic b) which affects not just many foreigners, but also the Swiss who happen to have family members who are not Swiss. I don't think this was clear to the voters at all as they were all just voting "on some gypsies who come here to take our money". That's what the initiators of the vote were banking on and that's not what direct democracy is about. I enjoy the polemics of Swiss politics at times but this one will affect the lives of hundreds of thousand residents in CH negatively if it comes so far.
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  #171  
Old 31.08.2015, 12:00
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Well that is one interpretation of it, but many would argue that the did not realise what was at stake.... time will tell. But one thing we need to be very clear about is that there is no going back, once broken it will not be undone.
It's been broken for years, time to put it out of it's misery!

Tom
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  #172  
Old 31.08.2015, 12:12
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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Because it does not only affect Europeans in Switzerland on an L permit but any non-EU forum member regardless of his permit: If CH leaves Schengen will any non-EU person living here need a Schengen visa to visit any neighbour country - yes, even for that supermarket trip to Waldshut or Konstanz.
I think that if you tell the average Swiss person that should Schengen go out the window, then non EU citizens will have to spend more money in Denner rather than in Waldshut, they may well look at you and say, "so, where's the problem?"

I do agree that there are good reasons to salavage what is good about the bilaterals, but this sounds to me to be the most insignificant (if not comical) of them.
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  #173  
Old 31.08.2015, 12:42
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I think that if you tell the average Swiss person that should Schengen go out the window, then non EU citizens will have to spend more money in Denner rather than in Waldshut, they may well look at you and say, "so, where's the problem?"

I do agree that there are good reasons to salavage what is good about the bilaterals, but this sounds to me to be the most insignificant (if not comical) of them.
It was an example for banal things we take as granted. But just for you: the non-EU people living in Switzerland will need a visa for the business trip to Frankfurt again. Happy now? I always know that I have a valid point when you ignore it but therefore start to nit-pick on details.

My point is: The Swiss did not decide against the bilaterals. They voted for a change in the bilaterals in regard of two minor countries in the EU. This change won't happen and the initiators of the vote knew that. They used this topic as a smoke screen argument to lever out the entire bilaterals... something the Swiss have voted on positively before so don't give the "it's democracy" argument. Simply put: The SVP claims that "the government" (of which they are a part of but somehow they forget this every time comes an election...) repeats votes till they get the outcome they want. In reality did the SVP lose the votes on Schengen and now found some back-door where they tricked voters into voting for something and then receiving something else in return.
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  #174  
Old 31.08.2015, 12:48
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It was an example for banal things we take as granted. But just for you: the non-EU people living in Switzerland will need a visa for the business trip to Frankfurt again. Happy now? I always know that I have a valid point when you ignore it but therefore start to nit-pick on details.
So they will need a visum to go on a business meeting to Frankfurt.

I have a friend who spent several years working for a US manufacturer at their factory in Mexico. He needed to go through the whole US immigration theatre every time he had to go to the company's HQ in the US for a meeting.

Do you think in the bigger picture that US - Mexican trade is in trouble because of it?
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  #175  
Old 31.08.2015, 14:45
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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So they will need a visum to go on a business meeting to Frankfurt.

I have a friend who spent several years working for a US manufacturer at their factory in Mexico. He needed to go through the whole US immigration theatre every time he had to go to the company's HQ in the US for a meeting.

Do you think in the bigger picture that US - Mexican trade is in trouble because of it?

I grew up with Gemany and Switzerland separated. BUT nobody needed ViSAS but only identity Cards. Unless you changed borders, as grandmum did, over the green frontier. Where nobody checked
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  #176  
Old 31.08.2015, 14:49
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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I think that if you tell the average Swiss person that should Schengen go out the window, then non EU citizens will have to spend more money in Denner rather than in Waldshut, they may well look at you and say, "so, where's the problem?"

I do agree that there are good reasons to salavage what is good about the bilaterals, but this sounds to me to be the most insignificant (if not comical) of them.


A) Schengen will NOT go out of the window
B) You Forget that CH is linked to Germany by accords of 1912 signed by Wilhelm II and countersigned in the 1950ies by Konrad Adenauer
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Old 31.08.2015, 14:53
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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A) Schengen will NOT go out of the window
B) You Forget that CH is linked to Germany by accords of 1912 signed by Wilhelm II and countersigned in the 1950ies by Konrad Adenauer
Prior to Schengen non EU people definitely did have trouble going to Germany.

Of course there always was the green border thing of which you speak, and a lot did go that way. But if you wanted to do things the official way it wasn't easy.

I was chatting with a Chinese businessman on the train once (this was maybe in the early 1990s) and having a very pleasant conversation right up to the point that the border police marched up and asked to see his papers, and upon seeing he didn't have the right visum they took him off the train.
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  #178  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:03
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It was clearly rejected around here, and no-one that I know is in favor of the bilaterals.

Tom

But most People overhere are in favour of the Bilaterals. Alright, lets Ticino Join the Italian Republic whille I would rather welcome VA CO BG MI join CH
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  #179  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:13
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

Schengen was a bad idea in my opinion.. countries lose control of their borders, hence why the UK didn't join.

In theory it works brilliantly and makes life easier for those in Europe with the right to be there. But in reality, as we now see, if certain countries don't do what they should do (Protect the Schengen/non-schengen border, process asylum seekers at point of entry etc) then the other countries can do nothing.

Either Schengen needs to go or everyone needs to get together and make it work properly.
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  #180  
Old 31.08.2015, 15:29
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Re: EU rejects renegotiation of free movement

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It was an example for banal things we take as granted. But just for you: the non-EU people living in Switzerland will need a visa for the business trip to Frankfurt again. Happy now? I always know that I have a valid point when you ignore it but therefore start to nit-pick on details.

My point is: The Swiss did not decide against the bilaterals. They voted for a change in the bilaterals in regard of two minor countries in the EU. This change won't happen and the initiators of the vote knew that. They used this topic as a smoke screen argument to lever out the entire bilaterals... something the Swiss have voted on positively before so don't give the "it's democracy" argument. Simply put: The SVP claims that "the government" (of which they are a part of but somehow they forget this every time comes an election...) repeats votes till they get the outcome they want. In reality did the SVP lose the votes on Schengen and now found some back-door where they tricked voters into voting for something and then receiving something else in return.
maybe they can anyway agree visa free travel between EU and Switzerland.

i don't even need a visa to travel to the US.
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