Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #181  
Old 15.10.2014, 15:01
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
So I think subjective describes it better than arbitrary.
I agree because I don't think that Brooks85 is right thinking that democratic decisions are arbitrary. Subjectivity is what a subject can do, hence the only thing we as subjects can do. Nothing wrong here. But if one wants to argue that those subjective democratic decisions are "verwerflich" (?invalid), one must fine a starting point for it. As the illusion of objectivity would go the exact opposite way, I proposed arbitrary.
Traditionally, in philosophy we define arbitrary as "not founded on pre-established ethical order but solely on individual perceptions with no possible valid transfer on a community". It is the closest I could spontaneously find to the idea of irrational and yet powerful belief of individuals that others are not able to make sense out of, like Brooks85 seemed to want to express. It is because we as the community do not valid the transfer of validity of the reasoning for this decision that we either make our own reasoning with the same conclusion or with a different conclusion. In each case, we do not base our thinking on the arbitrary processing of the issue by the citizenship commission but on our own perception of the issue and hence our own (pre)conceptions and beliefs.

Saying "subjective decision" means that we valid the reasoning of individuals as a community without necessarily validating the conclusion. Saying "arbitrary decision" means that we do not valid the reasoning thereof in itself and independently of conclusions.

Short version: I use "arbitrary" because we can speculate to death about what we think the commission was thinking and the reasons for it, but we won't be having this thinking. Which is the issue raised by Brooks85 as I read it. He thinks that this makes it impossible to have a democracy because unrelatable individual decisions (= arbitrary) will never be transferable to a collective thinking validating democracy as a validated power or tool thereof. In his frame of thinking, he is right. In my frame of thinking, he is wrong.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #182  
Old 15.10.2014, 15:39
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,713
Groaned at 87 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 11,201 Times in 5,564 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Objective or subjective, it seems that in certain communities, belonging to an umbrella community is seen as automatically excluding oneself from more local one. Either/or. It is not inclusive and has never been, plus the level or overlap is judged by locals who could have their geraniums offended at some point. The fact he has helped a number of kids who were local to some local communities bears no significance to petty minds.

I see no accidental conduct on this profs part, he has made his statement.

Overqualified, efficient and independent, he is bound to intimidate and provoke and he knows it.

The largeness of spirit is defined by the level of ignorance and pettiness lacking.

I am not sure if calling him petulant, not seeing his reasoning, puts posters in the pettiness camp. He has served his sentence, I am sure of it, I wonder if he is just tired of pretence, formalities and superficiality that still prevails in some settings.
__________________
"L'homme ne peut pas remplacer son coeur avec sa tete, ni sa tete avec ses mains." J.H.Pestalozzi
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #183  
Old 15.10.2014, 15:59
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 934
Groaned at 74 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 915 Times in 552 Posts
yacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputation
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
... Saying "subjective decision" means that we valid the reasoning ...

Please, define the meaning of the new English verb "valid" to help me understand what you've written. It is an adjective in my vocabulary and I don't know what semantics you're attributing to it.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank yacek for this useful post:
  #184  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:01
crazykittylady's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Glatt
Posts: 770
Groaned at 117 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 687 Times in 341 Posts
crazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Yes in the end it is subjective.
I can only assume it's subjective given that Yeslam Bin Ladin is a Swiss national. I guess having a few hundred million changes people's minds about how irrational someone might be.
Reply With Quote
  #185  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Please, define the meaning of the new English verb "valid" to help me understand what you've written. It is an adjective in my vocabulary and I don't know what semantics you're attributing to it.
I suck at English and I admit to it regularly in this forum, it's my 5th language, so you are invited to correct me in a civilized way. Anything else is your problem, not mine.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #186  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:07
lucy_who's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 642
Groaned at 7 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 1,002 Times in 384 Posts
lucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond reputelucy_who has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I suck at English and I admit to it regularly in this forum, it's my 5th language, so you are invited to correct me in a civilized way. Anything else is your problem, not mine.
Validate = to make valid.
Reply With Quote
  #187  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:08
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,049
Groaned at 267 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 14,167 Times in 5,749 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post

The largeness of spirit is defined by the level of ignorance and pettiness lacking.

.
I may be being petty but please could you explain what you mean in the sentence above?

English is my first language and I do appreciate that it can be others' second or third language but usually it's quite easy to understand what they are trying to say.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #188  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I may be being petty but please could you explain what you mean in the sentence above?
I understood that one It's a participial structure, it's only strange to you English speakers


My version:
People's openmindedness is inversely proportionate to ignorance&pettiness.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #189  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:17
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 5,102
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 6,063 Times in 3,277 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I am not sure if calling him petulant, not seeing his reasoning, puts posters in the pettiness camp. He has served his sentence, I am sure of it, I wonder if he is just tired of pretence, formalities and superficiality that still prevails in some settings.
Good question. I believe he is. Probably one of the (possible) reasons for which he didn't apply for citizenship before.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #190  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:19
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,713
Groaned at 87 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 11,201 Times in 5,564 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I understood that one It's a participial structure, it's only strange to you English speakers :mannered:


My version:
People's openmindedness is inversely proportionate to ignorance&pettiness.
Thanks, F, you are sehr quick, toi...and correct.

Tom's comment made me laugh, spitting coffee all over my fancy new pc. Thanks for pointing it out.

(I am working out of a cafe today, I have some history majors from my local uni sitting next to me, I have to say their language is rather contrived, too..Marie Therese era, or something)
Reply With Quote
  #191  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:21
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,049
Groaned at 267 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 14,167 Times in 5,749 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I understood that one It's a participial structure, it's only strange to you English speakers


My version:
People's openmindedness is inversely proportionate to ignorance&pettiness.
Yours appears to be almost correct English and is certainly understandable 9/10.

Music Chick's is nonsense and incorrect to boot 0/10.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #192  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Music Chick's is nonsense and incorrect to boot 0/10.
You need to learn a slavic language. The world will make so much more sense…
My sentence is just pure French and in my mind there was zero English when writing it. I'm an imposter and got away with it.

EDIT: MusicChick, don't get too excited, I took up my Russian studies again.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #193  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:23
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vaud
Posts: 934
Groaned at 74 Times in 44 Posts
Thanked 915 Times in 552 Posts
yacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputationyacek has an excellent reputation
American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I suck at English and I admit to it regularly in this forum, it's my 5th language, so you are invited to correct me in a civilized way. Anything else is your problem, not mine.

My question was not meant to be offensive at all.
I just tried to follow your reasoning and stumbled.
So is the assumption "to valid -> to make valid" correct?
Reply With Quote
  #194  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:33
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,401
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,582 Times in 6,204 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I suck at English and I admit to it regularly in this forum, it's my 5th language, so you are invited to correct me in a civilized way. Anything else is your problem, not mine.
Faltrad, I think we all understand your English well enough, so need to be apologetic.
Reply With Quote
  #195  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:34
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 5,102
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 6,063 Times in 3,277 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
You need to learn a slavic language. The world will make so much more sense…
My sentence is just pure French and in my mind there was zero English when writing it. I'm an imposter and got away with it.
.
Then I would have thought you'd use proportional instead of proportionate, no?
Reply With Quote
  #196  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:36
MusicChick's Avatar
modified and reprogrammed
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 9,713
Groaned at 87 Times in 70 Posts
Thanked 11,201 Times in 5,564 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
You need to learn a slavic language. The world will make so much more sense…
My sentence is just pure French and in my mind there was zero English when writing it. I'm an imposter and got away with it.

EDIT: MusicChick, don't get too excited, I took up my Russian studies again.
There you go..nice. When you are ready, I can swamp you with some pragmatics, comm rituals and patterns, the notion of respect and perception showing in patterns, the idea of closeness. It is fascinating. Really attractive and libs are full of it here, without much public interest in these advanced ling books. Researching Slavic communities abroad and their communication is even more interesting, the misperceptions, etc.

I hope the prof's situation will somehow get more clear and understood. I doubt it is as black and white as it seems to be.
Reply With Quote
  #197  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:37
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,049
Groaned at 267 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 14,167 Times in 5,749 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Faltrad, I think we all understand your English well enough, so need to be apologetic.
I think the term 'false modesty' fits well here.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #198  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:41
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I think the term 'false modesty' fits well here.
The French word for it would be stronger (foutage de gueule) but I'll validate this translation :thumb up:

P.S. See, dear German or French learning reader, how newly acquired vocabulary can and should be reused in a new context as soon as possible after the learning sequence?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #199  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:43
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,049
Groaned at 267 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 14,167 Times in 5,749 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
The French word for it would be stronger (foutage de gueule) but I'll validate this translation
Don't worry. My snide remark was only because I'm jealous.

My foreign language skills are appalling.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Tom1234 for this useful post:
  #200  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:45
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Don't worry. My snide remark was only because I'm jealous.

My foreign language skills are appalling.
Don't worry, I am jealous of people who can change a light bulb. Talking about the change in five languages and with Russian hopefully six in a not too distant future, is the only thing I can do.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can I get Swiss citizenship after 6 years of marriage to a Swiss citizen? nonameface13 Permits/visas/government 22 21.01.2013 13:40
MyOne (Manor) Credit Card denied, american FATCA again? runningdeer Finance/banking/taxation 12 16.10.2012 12:10
Swiss inheritance law applied to American with dual Swiss citizenship bmjnyc Finance/banking/taxation 5 11.03.2012 13:58
Your American Citizenship bedevil Permits/visas/government 12 03.08.2011 22:24
Swiss citizenship for babies born to Non Swiss Nationals? AlainaS Family matters/health 31 26.06.2009 00:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0