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  #201  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:47
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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I agree because I don't think that Brooks85 is right thinking that democratic decisions are arbitrary. Subjectivity is what a subject can do, hence the only thing we as subjects can do. Nothing wrong here. But if one wants to argue that those subjective democratic decisions are "verwerflich" (?invalid), one must fine a starting point for it.
I don't think verwerflich is the same as invalid. Verwerflich is stronger and more jugmental. For example, something can be invalid through an error or misunderstanding, but for something to be verwerflich, the person proposing it must be morally damaged. I'd say invalid is closer to ungültig and verwerflich is closer to reprehensible. The person judging that something is reprehensible must thus be claiming to speak from a position of moral superiority.

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As the illusion of objectivity would go the exact opposite way, I proposed arbitrary.
Traditionally, in philosophy we define arbitrary as "not founded on pre-established ethical order but solely on individual perceptions with no possible valid transfer on a community". It is the closest I could spontaneously find to the idea of irrational and yet powerful belief of individuals that others are not able to make sense out of, like Brooks85 seemed to want to express. It is because we as the community do not valid the transfer of validity of the reasoning for this decision that we either make our own reasoning with the same conclusion or with a different conclusion. In each case, we do not base our thinking on the arbitrary processing of the issue by the citizenship commission but on our own perception of the issue and hence our own (pre)conceptions and beliefs.

Saying "subjective decision" means that we valid the reasoning of individuals as a community without necessarily validating the conclusion. Saying "arbitrary decision" means that we do not valid the reasoning thereof in itself and independently of conclusions.

Short version: I use "arbitrary" because we can speculate to death about what we think the commission was thinking and the reasons for it, but we won't be having this thinking. Which is the issue raised by Brooks85 as I read it. He thinks that this makes it impossible to have a democracy because unrelatable individual decisions (= arbitrary) will never be transferable to a collective thinking validating democracy as a validated power or tool thereof. In his frame of thinking, he is right. In my frame of thinking, he is wrong.
Yes, but the aggregate of irrational decisons can still produce a rational consensus. It is the underlying principle of democracy that if a majority wants something, then they should have it. The rational of the why is contributory but not absolute.
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  #202  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:49
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Given the fact that I AGAIN got red blobs from Porsch for even saying something, I can pretty much perfectly explain what ARBITRARY is.
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  #203  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:49
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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Don't worry, I am jealous of people who can change a light bulb. Talking about the change in five languages and with Russian hopefully six in a not too distant future, is the only thing I can do.
No worries. There are neighbors around. I am really lucky for my multi lingual skills when it gets to asking them to change mine.
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  #204  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:52
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Hmmm. Sounds like "American professor vs. farmers" reloaded to me.
Btw, good idea for a movie script, Schweizermacher is so old.
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  #205  
Old 15.10.2014, 16:53
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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Hmmm. Sounds like "American professor vs. farmers" reloaded to me.
Btw, good idea for a movie script, Schweizermacher is so old.
You call Porsch a farmer? You'll get red blobs in no time. But thanks for calling me an American professor :-)
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  #206  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:08
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Is Porsch a farmer? I thought he was a Scotsman with a tan
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  #207  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:10
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

I suspect it did not help his case that his spoken German accent, despite 40 years of living in the West Virginia of Switzerland, is not particularly good.
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  #208  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:11
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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I suspect it did not help his case that his spoken German accent, despite 40 years of living in the West Virginia of Switzerland, is not particularly good.
Define "German accent"… it's Einsiedeln, remember?
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  #209  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:20
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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Define "German accent"… it's Einsiedeln, remember?
you mean that there might be differences?



I would think that any German accent that suggested to the community that he had spent 40 years with German as his primary spoken language instead of English would have helped. I know that many people struggle with foreign language accents (I am one of them), but after 40 years it probably did not help his cause to sound like he just came out of an immersion course at the local Migros.
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  #210  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:34
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Of course he's not fully integrated ....... he couldn't even be bothered to sign up with EF.
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  #211  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:37
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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Of course he's not fully integrated ....... he couldn't even be bothered to sign up with EF.
How do you know ?
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  #212  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:42
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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Of course he's not fully integrated ....... he couldn't even be bothered to sign up with EF.
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How do you know ?
Because he would have already started a thread in the Complaints Corner, of course!
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  #213  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:48
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

He real problem?

When asked if he knows Kälin, has ever had a beer with Kälin, thinks Kälin is a nice chap, and if he was ever in any trouble with Kälin. He confused Kälin with Kälin, and totally though that Kälin was actually Kälin when in fact it was Kälin.
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  #214  
Old 15.10.2014, 17:54
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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you mean that there might be differences?



I would think that any German accent that suggested to the community that he had spent 40 years with German as his primary spoken language instead of English would have helped.
I did push it a bit, I admit. This man probably didn't make German language his priority in life like I didn't do tax law mine. If I had to take a test in German tax filling, I wouldn't get the passport. I managed the Swiss one almost alone though. There is no "better" skill. This man isn't skilled in languages and even if it's partially his fault, it is also partially my fault that I can't do my German taxes without advisor - however, nobody finds it strange that I pay a tax advisor for it. I can do the communication and administrative part of it with the tax office, like other people get along in the local language even if it is as primitive as my tax administrative skills.

On the technical part:
Strangely, I'd say that accent is the last worry on my mind in German. Used to many differences, probably. In French, English accent especially, makes it really hard to understand. It's more of a problem. Frankly, locals in Einsiedeln like quite a few places in the world, can't afford to make any comment on German pronunciation. Even with experience and being German native, I kind of "fatigue" in long conversations. People in my family (north, around Hamburg) genuinely do not understand spoken Swiss High German in real life, even if TV news are always easy to understand. For an American non-linguist with a non-Swiss wife and very academic kind of private life, I do understand that he wouldn't sound Swiss when speaking. With his wife, I would also understand that English has become their language of intimacy and domestic life, I must admit that I do not treat French and German equally in my private life right now either. It's a one of a kind family dynamics. Nothing a Swiss citizenship commission would be able to understand.
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Old 15.10.2014, 18:00
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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He real problem?

When asked if he knows Kälin, has ever had a beer with Kälin, thinks Kälin is a nice chap, and if he was ever in any trouble with Kälin. He confused Kälin with Kälin, and totally though that Kälin was actually Kälin when in fact it was Kälin.
To make matters worse, he slighted both the Kälins and the Kälins by forgetting that Kälin-Kälin chose to hyphenate.

(Only in Einsiedeln... )
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Old 15.10.2014, 18:27
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

The "Blick" spoke with Prof. Dunn about Einsiedeln denying his Swiss citizenship application. The Naturalisation Committee accused him of applying for Swiss citizenship to evade US taxes. This is what the article had to say:

" The community administration accused Dunn that he wanted to benefit personally through naturalisation by fleeing from the American tax authorities. "An insult", said Dunn. "I must continue to pay taxes in the USA after the naturalisation because I plan to keep my US citizenship. Because then I can visit my family in the USA more easily." The red passport for Dunn is the final step towards integration. "

He then goes on to say that he suspects the rejection of his citizenship application may have something to do with the SVP and that they don't like foreigners.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zen...id3198891.html

In Neudeutsch, what a "Shitstorm".
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Old 15.10.2014, 18:35
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

He obviously wasn't prepared to play the game, like the rest of us, and promise to vote SVP once citizenship is granted.
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Old 15.10.2014, 18:35
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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He then goes on to say that he suspects the rejection of his citizenship application may have something to do with the SVP and that they don't like foreigners.

In Neudeutsch, what a "Shitstorm".
It's Blick… having him accusing the SVP publicly is BINGO! it was a shitstorm before the journalists took care of it, but they will make sure it stays one for a while, just in case it helps selling the paper. For them, it's worth a try. But is it for anybody else?
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  #219  
Old 15.10.2014, 18:43
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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The "Blick" spoke with Prof. Dunn about Einsiedeln denying his Swiss citizenship application. The Naturalisation Committee accused him of applying for Swiss citizenship to evade US taxes. This is what the article had to say:

" The community administration accused Dunn that he wanted to benefit personally through naturalisation by fleeing from the American tax authorities. "An insult", said Dunn. "I must continue to pay taxes in the USA after the naturalisation because I plan to keep my US citizenship. Because then I can visit my family in the USA more easily." The red passport for Dunn is the final step towards integration. "

He then goes on to say that he suspects the rejection of his citizenship application may have something to do with the SVP and that they don't like foreigners.

http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/zen...id3198891.html

In Neudeutsch, what a "Shitstorm".
at least in my professional and social circles in Switzerland, "integration" as an American in the eyes of others is not possible without dialect. yes, you are welcome to stay and learn standard German, but failure to evidence at least a willingness to learn dialect is viewed by many - albeit mostly quietly when you are around - as a rejection of the local community. I suspect that this runs on several levels much deeper than simply not liking foreigners.

I am sure that every native Swiss EF'er will tell me I am wrong, but this has been my experience.
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  #220  
Old 15.10.2014, 18:51
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Yes of course it's the red necked SVP. Thats obvious
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at least in my professional and social circles in Switzerland, "integration" as an American in the eyes of others is not possible without dialect. yes, you are welcome to stay and learn standard German, but failure to evidence at least a willingness to learn dialect is viewed by many - albeit mostly quietly when you are around - as a rejection of the local community. I suspect that this runs on several levels much deeper than simply not liking foreigners.

I am sure that every native Swiss EF'er will tell me I am wrong, but this has been my experience.
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