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  #21  
Old 14.10.2014, 09:52
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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There's fault on both sides; his for not bloody knowing the neighbouring villages after 39 years (this I find incredible), and the Gemeinderat for not properly preparing their naturalisation candidates (deliberately, perhaps?). Before our commune and canton interviews, we were given a crib sheet of things we should know and were likely to be questioned on; local geography, political figures etc. We learnt more about the local political scene than many of our Swiss friends had forgotten.
Wrong, Paddy. They did attempt to prepare him but if the candidate did not deem it necessary to put in any effort on his part, the Gemeinde felt his desire to become Swiss wasn't that serious.
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  #22  
Old 14.10.2014, 09:55
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Like usual, I find some comments appalling...

It is that mandatory to know the "surrounding villages" name when you live somewhere, even for a long period?

Then we should denationalize some of my Swiss colleagues because a few of them did not know the villages names like 5 KM where they live.

A few basic possibilities:
-The person use public transports and never gets to other villages since it's far and since the public transport often sucks ()
-The person simply does not care about local surroundings (is that evidence of poor integration???)
-The person works a lot and have little time/interests for outings (then kick he Swiss Geeks also)
-The person is not very active (then again, kick my fat and/or lazy colleagues)
...

Also, don't you find suspicious that some "local judges" (call them integration dictators) are asking such trivial questions to someone... there for 39 years?
Did they really had to ask those?

Like usual there is more to the story and I'm sure there is some good traditional human nastiness at play, and some were trying to fault that person and succeeded.
Fair enough but consider the other side of the story. This guy is not only applying to become Swiss, he's applying to become a citizen (Stimmbürger) of the town of Einsiedeln. If they let him in, he then has the right to vote on all sorts of local stuff affecting the town of Einsiedeln and its six surrounding villages. Huge chunks of government spending - shall we resurface the train station platforms? shall the school have a new tennis court? do we need a full-time social worker? - are decided at this level; I couldn't find figures on how many people are citizens of Einsiedeln-and-its-six-villages, but only about 100 people show up to the annual meetings, so allowing this guy in is giving him a potentially very significant voice in local affairs. It's not unreasonable that they would like him to at least show an interest in what those affairs consist of.

As for the questions they asked, you can find out the names of these six villages on Wikipedia in fifteen seconds, and even an occasional browse through the local newspaper would clue you in on what the local political issues are. If he didn't bother to do this - despite being fluent in German and despite knowing he'd be asked about it - then I'm with the locals: he clearly isn't all that interested in the political life of Einsiedeln. Fair enough, maybe his world centers more on Zürich - but then perhaps he should move to Zürich and apply for citizenship there.
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  #23  
Old 14.10.2014, 09:59
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Wrong, Paddy. They did attempt to prepare him but if the candidate did not deem it necessary to put in any effort on his part, the Gemeinde felt his desire to become Swiss wasn't that serious.
I didn't see any reference to candidate preparation in the report.
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:03
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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I didn't see any reference to candidate preparation in the report.
The last three sentences of the first long paragraph on p. 18. I would copy/paste but the document doesn't allow it.
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:05
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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39 years in Einsiedeln and doesn't know the neighbouring villages?
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There's fault on both sides; his for not bloody knowing the neighbouring villages after 39 years (this I find incredible)
Nobody ever said he liven in the village that long - he was in Switzerland for 39 years. I'd only move to Einsiedeln once I hit 60, so he was probably there for a decade and you know... people are not that mobile anymore once they retire - you know the villages down the hill, but not the ones you have to climb up to...
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:06
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

He's lived in a neighbouring village of Einsiedeln since 1975.

Edit:

The report is obviously just one side of the story but it seems they would have granted citizenship if the candidate had just shown some initiative of taking the interview seriously on his part. It reminds me of students who know they have an upcoming test but don't take the time to study and subsequently fail. Rather ironic that this happens to professors too.
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  #27  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:15
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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The last three sentences of the first long paragraph on p. 18. I would copy/paste but the document doesn't allow it.
OK yes, found it. I overlooked the link to the Bezirk document. Here's the sentences you referred to.

"Die Gesuchsteller erhalten umfangreiche Unterlagen über die
Voraussetzungen der Einbürgerung, darunter auch über
die erwarteten Grundkenntnisse. Von einem Bewerber
dürfen Anstrengungen erwartet werden, sich diese Kenntnisse
anzueignen. Die Einbürgerungsbehörde ist zum
Schluss gekommen, dass die Anstrengungen des Gesuchstellers
eindeutig als unzureichend bezeichnet werden
müssen."

Interesting that despite the reported anti-Balkan sentiment in Schwyz, many of those successful in their naturalisation request are indeed from this region. Yet the American is not.
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  #28  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:18
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Kanton Schwyz... what a surprise. Seems to be the Kanton equivalent of Royston Vasey.
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  #29  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:21
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

was he the only one rejected?
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  #30  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:23
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

american-professor-denied-swiss-citizenship-d1z3r.jpg
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  #31  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:23
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...story/31362418


A little more light...
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  #32  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:24
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Interestingly, almost all the readers comments in the 20 minute article support him (with subtle undertones suggesting that a lot more undeserving candidates get citizenship).
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:26
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Interesting that despite the reported anti-Balkan sentiment in Schwyz, many of those successful in their naturalisation request are indeed from this region. Yet the American is not.
Honestly, taking a test to become a citizen? How could have he known?
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  #34  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:32
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

He was the only one who's application was denied.

They accepted 3 bosnians, a turk, a serb, 6 germans, an italian and a sri lankan so clearly there's far more the story than simply "OMG conservative schwyz".

Sounds like he was completely unprepared and didn't take it seriously. That he has to pay the 3000+ CHFs is ridiculous though, imho...
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  #35  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:34
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

After reading this, I am not at all surprised. It is the local community who you have to pass the test with, and on nearly all accounts on his part, epic fail. He could have made at least some effort. There are many small villages all around CH, not just Schwytz, that would likely do the same, how to acccept someone as your fellow national when there is nothing to go on.

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Here's the official statement from the Gemeinde:

http://www.einsiedeln.ch/libraries.f...tober_2014.pdf

p. 17: A biography of the man
p. 18: Reasons for denial

In a nutshell:
- he couldn't name any friends or aquaintances from Einsiedeln.
- he wasn't involved in Einsiedeln's community life in any way.
- he couldn't name any current political issues in Einsiedeln.
- When asked why he wanted to become a citizen, he replied he was thinking of going abroad over a longer period of time and didn't want to lose his current Swiss permit. He also mentioned his assets are all located in Switzerland.
- he knew very little about politics in Canton Schwyz

Tom's deduction about arrogance is probably right. The candidate was given instructions in advance on what was expected of him in the interview and they felt he didn't even attempt to look up some of the answers that he knew he would be asked.
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  #36  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:42
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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He was the only one who's application was denied.

They accepted 3 bosnians, a turk, a serb, 6 germans, an italian and a sri lankan so clearly there's far more the story than simply "OMG conservative schwyz".

Sounds like he was completely unprepared and didn't take it seriously. That he has to pay the 3000+ CHFs is ridiculous though, imho...
Actually, 2 Serbs, 1 Turk, 3 Croats, 6 Germans, 1 Bosnian, 2 Italians, and 1 Sri Lankan.
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:45
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Here's the official statement from the Gemeinde:

http://www.einsiedeln.ch/libraries.f...tober_2014.pdf

p. 17: A biography of the man
p. 18: Reasons for denial

In a nutshell:
- he couldn't name any friends or aquaintances from Einsiedeln.
- he wasn't involved in Einsiedeln's community life in any way.
- he couldn't name any current political issues in Einsiedeln.
- When asked why he wanted to become a citizen, he replied he was thinking of going abroad over a longer period of time and didn't want to lose his current Swiss permit. He also mentioned his assets are all located in Switzerland.
- he knew very little about politics in Canton Schwyz

Tom's deduction about arrogance is probably right. The candidate was given instructions in advance on what was expected of him in the interview and they felt he didn't even attempt to look up some of the answers that he knew he would be asked.
Well, if arrogance precluded the issuance of a passport then I can't see how any Swiss passport are ever issued. But I agree, he should have jumped through the hoops asked of him as we all have to to get what we want.
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:53
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Fair enough but consider the other side of the story. This guy is not only applying to become Swiss, he's applying to become a citizen (Stimmbürger) of the town of Einsiedeln. If they let him in, he then has the right to vote on all sorts of local stuff affecting the town of Einsiedeln and its six surrounding villages. Huge chunks of government spending - shall we resurface the train station platforms? shall the school have a new tennis court? do we need a full-time social worker? - are decided at this level; I couldn't find figures on how many people are citizens of Einsiedeln-and-its-six-villages, but only about 100 people show up to the annual meetings, so allowing this guy in is giving him a potentially very significant voice in local affairs. It's not unreasonable that they would like him to at least show an interest in what those affairs consist of.

As for the questions they asked, you can find out the names of these six villages on Wikipedia in fifteen seconds, and even an occasional browse through the local newspaper would clue you in on what the local political issues are. If he didn't bother to do this - despite being fluent in German and despite knowing he'd be asked about it - then I'm with the locals: he clearly isn't all that interested in the political life of Einsiedeln. Fair enough, maybe his world centers more on Zürich - but then perhaps he should move to Zürich and apply for citizenship there.
I agree with your comment, to an extend.
But don't get me wrong I was not "defending the guy" but "against some comments commenting blindly".
In other words we did not know enough to judge.

Now, since someone posted more details it seems clearer: the guy failed the exam because he did not prepare enough what he was about to be asked.

Now as I am always seeing the situation differently than most people, I am wondering:
-How "serious" is that exam? I mean the guy would have "prepared" the exam and succeeded, still without caring for local life. For example he would have studied 1 hour to know the village names, and still can not give a sh1t about local politics, interests, etc...
-How are the consequences vs the actual result? Trying to say: ok he can be "local", vote, influence on their "local life". But seriously, a guy who was there 39 years is that not enough? Or knowing that he can vote and his 1 divided by 25K (other citizen) vote will "really" make an impact?
-Does the other contributions he made for so long are not more valuable than knowing the local things? (teaching, taxes, etc...)
-What is the balance of the "person trying to be integrated" vs the "power of the locals". 39 years no local friends, who's to blame? After 39 years he still has to prove himself in the view of some locals, is that surprising he has no local friends???

Well, i'm out of the topic because I have more important things to do now, but still I don't find this situation very correct, from "locals" and from "users easily commenting".
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  #39  
Old 14.10.2014, 10:56
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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After reading this, I am not at all surprised. It is the local community who you have to pass the test with, and on nearly all accounts on his part, epic fail. He could have made at least some effort. There are many small villages all around CH, not just Schwytz, that would likely do the same, how to acccept someone as your fellow national when there is nothing to go on.
39 years ignored because he did not comply with some exams requirements, with basic questions... seems a bit harsh, no?
Fair enough he misbehaved or did not have the appropriate behavior but everything else was not taken into account.

It's easy to offend the "judges" but really, are they really in the position to be neutral and judge decently?
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Old 14.10.2014, 10:59
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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39 years ignored because he did not comply with some exams requirements, with basic questions... seems a bit harsh, no?
Fair enough he misbehaved or did not have the appropriate behavior but everything else was not taken into account.

It's easy to offend the "judges" but really, are they really in the position to be neutral and judge decently?
I can't see what difference 39 years makes? I don't think time should be a factor in any way. Some people are totally Swiss-o-philes (I assume, I don't socialise with nutters) and the minute they get off the plane they're all about the Swiss-German and making local friends etc. Give em a passport immediately! If you're not interested in Switzerland/your commune, you can't become a citizen.
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