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  #41  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:03
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Now as I am always seeing the situation differently than most people, I am wondering:
-How "serious" is that exam? I mean the guy would have "prepared" the exam and succeeded, still without caring for local life. For example he would have studied 1 hour to know the village names, and still can not give a sh1t about local politics, interests, etc...
-How are the consequences vs the actual result? Trying to say: ok he can be "local", vote, influence on their "local life". But seriously, a guy who was there 39 years is that not enough? Or knowing that he can vote and his 1 divided by 25K (other citizen) vote will "really" make an impact?
-Does the other contributions he made for so long are not more valuable than knowing the local things? (teaching, taxes, etc...)
-What is the balance of the "person trying to be integrated" vs the "power of the locals". 39 years no local friends, who's to blame? After 39 years he still has to prove himself in the view of some locals, is that surprising he has no local friends???

Well, i'm out of the topic because I have more important things to do now, but still I don't find this situation very correct, from "locals" and from "users easily commenting".
Absolutely. I think they were too harsh given this man's biography. Besides, I bet that most of those who were granted citizenship weren't in fact that much better integrated than him. They were better at playing by these specific rules for sure, and that's all that counted.
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  #42  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:06
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Absolutely. I think they were too harsh given this man's biography. Besides, I bet that most of those who were granted citizenship weren't in fact that much better integrated than him. They were better at playing by these specific rules for sure, and that's all that counted.
But citizenship in Switzerland isn't granted on how awesome you are. To my knowledge it's one of

1. citizenship by birth
2. integration
3. marrying in
4. being super rich

He was none of those. They were. That's the ball game.
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  #43  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:09
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Before our commune and canton interviews, we were given a crib sheet of things we should know and were likely to be questioned on; local geography, political figures etc.
According to the text of the actual decision, he was indeed given such a thing and did not know what was in it.

Let's not base commentary on journalists when we have the actual material at hand?
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:09
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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But citizenship in Switzerland isn't granted on how awesome you are. To my knowledge it's one of

1. citizenship by birth
2. integration
3. marrying in
4. being super rich

He was none of those. They were. That's the ball game.
5. Taking the interview process seriously
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  #45  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:19
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Absolutely. I think they were too harsh given this man's biography. Besides, I bet that most of those who were granted citizenship weren't in fact that much better integrated than him. They were better at playing by these specific rules for sure, and that's all that counted.
When it comes to the Swiss rules for foreigners, one facet that is the hardest to deal with is the seeming subjectivity and hidden norms. Naturalisation is particularly vulnerable to subjective judgements, and an issue for which many gemeindes have been hauled up in the court of public opinion.

In this case, a village in a very conservative part of Switzerland is attempting to actually make the process more objective by listing topics and handing out material in advance. More respect to them, in attempting to systematically deal with a difficult process such as naturalisation.

Why should this mans failure cast doubt on the success of others, many coming from less advantaged backgrounds.
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  #46  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:26
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Why should this mans failure cast doubt on the success of others, many coming from less advantaged backgrounds.
Because I've been around for a while and saw some things. Btw, it's not his failure that casts doubts on the success of others, it's the naturalisation process in itself.
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  #47  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:37
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Ah, but the question wasn't "shall we make him a Swiss?" (Or rather, it was but the Bund already considered that question and its answer was "sure, don't see why not".)

The question was, "shall we make him an Einsiedler?"
In my book, not being able to list six friends in Einsiedeln already made him an Einsiedler (recluse). He evidently wanted to make it official.
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  #48  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:37
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

I've been asking around at work, and it seems there's more to this story than the papers are letting on.


Back in February, the citizens of Einsiedeln were celebrating their traditional Zwergenjagd. This only takes place once every twenty four years, and the locals are very proud to take part in it.


This year, as a result of the unusually mild winter, there weren't many dwarves around, and after three days of hard riding over the hills and dales of Schwyz the disappointed hunters were only able to bring back one rather weedy looking specimen, dangling disconsolately from a fence post, trussed up like a turkey.


The gentleman in question was invited to execute the coup-de-grace in honour of his living in the town for 40 years (Schwyz timekeeping starts at 1 rather than 0. Confusing or what?). He was given a mallet and blindfold for the purpose, then led to the Klosterplatz where the unfortunate dwarf lay helpless on a trestle table, its little white beard quivering and its little curly toes twitching in fear.


The Professor, despite earlier bravado amongst his friends in the Zwergschlagereiverein, found himself unable to do it. He dropped the mallet and fled the square, leaving the townsfolk tutting and shaking their heads in disgust.


Having squandered such a great honour, the Professor had no hope of ever being accepted back into the community again. Nobody looks him in the eye any more, shopkeepers refuse to serve him and he is obliged to drop his rubbish bags in a specially provided skip at the university in Zurich as the local binmen won't touch them.


Of course, this hasn't made it into the papers as the Zwergenjagd is seen as a barbaric, heathen custom and non-Einsiedlers would rather forget it ever existed. But that's what really happened. My mate Hans-Ueli wouldn't lie, would he?


I hope that clears things up somewhat.


(The dwarf, by the way, was drowned in a bucket by a local butcher and made into smoked sausages. Apparently they're quite delicious, although they have a tendency to be a bit hairy.)

Last edited by Dougal's Breakfast; 14.10.2014 at 12:11. Reason: spleling
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  #49  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:38
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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It's easy to offend the "judges" but really, are they really in the position to be neutral and judge decently?
Sorry but this is not a court where one is judged innocent or guilty.

Rather it is a panel of fellow citizens who make an opinion or recommendation. I kind of relate it to old tribal customs, either you are part of the tribe and contribute and participate like everyone else, or you are part of another tribe.
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:40
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Actually, 2 Serbs, 1 Turk, 3 Croats, 6 Germans, 1 Bosnian, 2 Italians, and 1 Sri Lankan.
...and a partridge in a pear tree.
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  #51  
Old 14.10.2014, 11:42
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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I understand and agree that there should be a test and in my eyes can the bar be set quite high: I think immigrants need to put an effort into learning the local language in order to really take part in social life (in Germany is the biggest group of immigrants Turkish and the fact that first gen men learn German at work while their wives can live in the country for decades without even minimal German is causing a parallel society which is bad). I also think it's important that any immigrant should understand the social and political system and within the democratic spectrum agree to the fundamentals. You should not just get a passport because it is convenient, you should identify yourself with the new country. But I fail to see why the exact village should be of importance at all. If one knows all the cantons, but not the third village up the hill in the direction he never drives as he goes to Zurich - does this really disqualify him from being a good Swiss?
Because you become not just a citizen of CH but a "Bürger" of your village?
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:47
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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...and a partridge in a pear tree.
Even the partridge managed to pass.....
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:49
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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According to the text of the actual decision, he was indeed given such a thing and did not know what was in it.

Let's not base commentary on journalists when we have the actual material at hand?
And you'll see I corrected myself. Thank you for reading .
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:52
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Sorry but this is not a court where one is judged innocent or guilty.

Rather it is a panel of fellow citizens who make an opinion or recommendation. I kind of relate it to old tribal customs, either you are part of the tribe and contribute and participate like everyone else, or you are part of another tribe.
But that's the thing, he did contribute. This is a country that issued him residence permits based on his capacity to fill a gap in a certain field and contribute with his taxes, and it kept doing so for 39 years. And there comes a time when he's asking for something that many people get anyway. He might be not interested in local politics, he might be a lonely man, so what's then? It wasn't about a specific psychological profile they asked when they first let him in. Some are friendly with the locals, likeable and interested in their immediate surroundings. Fair enough, each contributes with what they can.
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:54
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Absolutely. I think they were too harsh given this man's biography. Besides, I bet that most of those who were granted citizenship weren't in fact that much better integrated than him. They were better at playing by these specific rules for sure, and that's all that counted.
Methinks there may have been a certain degree of haughty arrogance on his part, as in "I'm an ETH professor and you're a bunch of farmers, so surely I shouldn't be held to the same standards as you". And mabye back in Victorian times that would have been a good enough reason to let him pass the test, and indeed that wives of professors and wives of head doctors could jump the queue in the grocery store because they were "Frau Professor". Times have changed but some individuals have failed to change with them. So maybe its not the people of Einsiedeln who are living in the past here, but the professor himself?

It is strange that some professors decry the same attitude among their students, denouncing those who think the rules don't apply to them because they're rich or have good grades or something like that. So it shows that what goes around comes around.
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Old 14.10.2014, 11:58
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Say you were giving a course, at the end of which, the course attendees were required to take an exam in order to pass the course. Before the exam, you gave the students a sheet with the questions and answers for the forthcoming exam, yet one of the students failed the exam because they couldn't be bothered. Would you pass them anyway, because you knew they had attended all the lectures/seminars and had completed the course work to date?
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:07
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

This case is an exception.. as the person didn't had the intention to become Swiss before, he for sure didn't really need it or wanted it. Becoming a citizen of a new country goes a lot farther then just signing a paper and having a good profile, willingness and motivation are values that one should have before anything else!
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:08
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

regardless of his lack of knowledge, if when asked, "why do you want the passport" and you answer "cos maybe i want to go on holiday soon and want to avoid any hassles"...
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:12
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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5. Taking the interview "local pub quizz" seriously
Corrected that for you
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:13
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

According to the Migration Integration Policy Index (MIPEX), Switzerland's "Access to Nationality" policies do not rank favourably in comparison with other countries. This is what MIPEX has to say:

"Nationality policies are still slightly unfavourable for encouraging and recognising immigrants’ integration. Recently, all applicants have been guaranteed security from discrimination and discretion (see box). Still, their citizenship paths are more complicated and lengthy than average in Europe, especially its established immigration countries. The issue is regularly politicised by the Swiss People’s Party. Reforming countries draw from international trends to better encourage immigrants and descendants to become citizens (see LU in 2008, GR in 2010). With procedures shifting canton-to-canton, Swiss immigrants lack basic citizenship entitlements and standards on residence and conditions (see box).
Many immigrants who would pass conditions as ‘integrated’ are still treated as ineligible for years. The first generation waits 12+ uninterrupted years, longer than in any of the 30 MIPEX countries."

"Complex and burdensome conditions in cantons are critically unfavourable for integration, with only Switzerland scoring zero. Cantons decide who qualifies as Swiss national citizens, as well as what is integration and ‘Swiss lifestyles, manners and customs’. Unlike in other federal countries (see AT, CA, DE, US), all applicants are not supported to succeed with professional assessments, public test questions and free courses. Becoming Swiss can be time-consuming (no time limit, unlike 13) and the most expensive of all MIPEX countries, averaging an estimated 1,500 euros. At least applicants face one less barrier to naturalisation since 1992: no need to renounce previous citizenship (now 18 MIPEX countries). Applicants are still partly uncertain of the outcome, even if they meet these conditions (unlike 10 countries, e.g. DE, NL). Authorities have many grounds for rejection, but few for withdrawal, good statelessness protection and now procedural guarantees (see box)."


http://www.mipex.eu/switzerland
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