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  #61  
Old 14.10.2014, 12:21
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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regardless of his lack of knowledge, if when asked, "why do you want the passport" and you answer "cos maybe i want to go on holiday soon and want to avoid any hassles"...
You mean he shouldn't have been honest? If you have three settled children in Switzerland and when retiring and want to spend an extended period of time abroad then I'd say this is a perfectly valid reason for citizenship.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:25
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

It certainly was not wise for him to say that a reason for wanting Swiss Nationality he was planning a long trip abroad and did not want to lose the option to return as a resident in Switzerland.

That his (German) wife did not apply to become a citizen may also have looked 'odd' as does the long delay in submitting an application for citizenship.

From the rules regarding application for citizenship in Kanton Schwyz, http://www.sz.ch/xml_1/internet/de/a...2662/p2654.cfm , it is not clear how much scope the local administration actually has to question the candidates' German and social/political knowledge. These are tested at Berufsbildungszentrum BBZ Pfäffikon in Pfäffikon SZ, and these he passed.

Anyway, he had 10 days to appeal to the Kanton.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:26
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Say you were giving a course, at the end of which, the course attendees were required to take an exam in order to pass the course. Before the exam, you gave the students a sheet with the questions and answers for the forthcoming exam, yet one of the students failed the exam because they couldn't be bothered. Would you pass them anyway, because you knew they had attended all the lectures/seminars and had completed the course work to date?
Say that the guy had 39 years, maybe 100% of them of professional experience- Then what's the value of the diploma for that "student"?
There is in France a system where everyone can have "validation des acquis" which is basically if you have enough professional experience equivalent to a diploma, then you can (pay and) get that diploma, since they acknowledge that experience.

So your "student" is not a basic student, but a student who has years of experiences in that topic. Sorry, I almost forgot that he has 30 years of BAD experience of being Swiss citizen since he was never a good (Swiss) citizen.

Also, your "student" has been paying taxes (tuition fees) and attending the uni for 39 years. He has proven himself in many topics to a high level (jobs, teaching).

So yeah I think a university which will still refuse him the "diploma" after that long is wrong.

Especially when the "diploma" is only evaluating his knowledge of... the university facility. Where are room for physics, how many student friends he has, and why he want to leave the uni....


Sorry, nice try but wrong comparison
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  #64  
Old 14.10.2014, 12:27
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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"[...] Cantons decide who qualifies as Swiss national citizens, as well as what is integration and ‘Swiss lifestyles, manners and customs’. Unlike in other federal countries (see AT, CA, DE, US), all applicants are not supported to succeed with professional assessments, public test questions and free courses. [...]"

http://www.mipex.eu/switzerland
As I said before, one does not simply become Swiss. One has to first become a citizen of a town. It is the community who decides who will become a citizen of the community. Attached to that comes the citizenship of the canton and finally the federal citizenship. It is an archaic process (o.k medieval) with a long tradition. Resulting in the fact that your place of birth is less important then your place of citizenship.
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  #65  
Old 14.10.2014, 12:29
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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You mean he shouldn't have been honest? If you have three settled children in Switzerland and when retiring and want to spend an extended period of time abroad then I'd say this is a perfectly valid reason for citizenship.
not sure that the swiss consider personal convenience a good reason for handing out passports.

besides, he's spent 39 years without applying for one, so can certainly continue for several more years with the same status.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:35
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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But that's the thing, he did contribute. This is a country that issued him residence permits based on his capacity to fill a gap in a certain field and contribute with his taxes, and it kept doing so for 39 years.
Not to mention the contribution of students that he has had a direct hand in guiding, many of which now pay taxes, and contribute to the commonweal.

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Methinks there may have been a certain degree of haughty arrogance on his part, as in "I'm an ETH professor and you're a bunch of farmers, so surely I shouldn't be held to the same standards as you".
Nothing precludes an equal and opposite speculation, that one or more of the judges shared your opinion, the anticipation of dealing with an arrogant, entitled city-slicker American. Do we wonder whether and how such an anticipation may have biased their assessment?

I really don't care either way. He may deserve citizenship, but if he wanted it, he should have been well aware of how insular and how narrow a perspective the Swiss can be perfectly happy to operate from. And so, in dealing with official Swiss Officials, he should have put on his red&white cross boxer briefs, clenched up a notch, and known what was expected of him, and known it on cue.

But, parrots do not an informed electorate make. I'm not saying the US is full of well educated voters, LOL of LOLs, but I am saying such are not necesarily selected for everywhere else in the world.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:39
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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And so, in dealing with official Swiss Officials, he should have put on his red&white cross boxer briefs, clenched up a notch, and known what was expected of him, and known it on cue.

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Old 14.10.2014, 12:40
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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You mean he shouldn't have been honest? If you have three settled children in Switzerland and when retiring and want to spend an extended period of time abroad then I'd say this is a perfectly valid reason for citizenship.
let's admit- 39 years is not enough to do that.
I think I should vote that a foreigner must live and work in Switzerland for at least 173 years prior to be able to move out and back for retirement.

Oops silly me, I am wrong!....I forgot I can not vote, i'm a foreigner!
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  #69  
Old 14.10.2014, 12:44
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

had this gentleman applied while he was still teaching at ETH and was still considered an asset, his application no doubt would have been approved and with far fewer questions and fanfare. after 40 years, however, already retired and with a German wife who has apparently expressed no interest in Swiss citizenship, his application was doomed to be DOA from the very beginning. all this stuff about not having friends from his local village, etc. is just window dressing.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:48
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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But that's the thing, he did contribute. This is a country that issued him residence permits based on his capacity to fill a gap in a certain field and contribute with his taxes, and it kept doing so for 39 years.
But 'contributions' are not enough to qualify for citizenship.

As has been made crystal clear to us (I, too, live in a little village in SZ) contributions - filling a gap in the Swiss economy, creating Swiss jobs, paying significant taxes, as well as checking the boxes by following the rules, providing the language and 'Politics and Society' test certificates - these are simply the starting point. The real issue is integration - your reputation in the village, the relationships you have formed. Without those, no matter how valuable your contributions are you are not going to be approved for naturalization.

The local attitude is that there are, and always will be, sufficient Auslanders coming who will 'contribute'. The reward for their contribution is to be allowed to continue to stay here as a foreign resident. Citizenship holds a much higher barrier, and is bestowed only on those who have truly become part of the fabric of local society.

I may not agree with the definition of what constitutes adding value to society but (in that phrase I so despise) it is what it is.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:52
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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not sure that the swiss consider personal convenience a good reason for handing out passports.

besides, he's spent 39 years without applying for one, so can certainly continue for several more years with the same status.
AFAIK extended absences from Switzerland (6 months maybe) even with a C permit results in termination of your C permit.

It's not really convenience. His whole life is here.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:54
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Well yes... and no. As MathNut rightly says, in Switzerland you are first a citizen of your Commune/Gemeinde- then C/Kanton, then the country- with very direct voting rights on all sorts of local issues. It seems this guy did contribute- but to the town of Zurich- with Einsiedeln being his sleeping quarters. In most countries where citizens do not have voting rights on all local issues, the locality may seem irrelevant- here it is important. If somebody is clearly not connected to the local area, be it factually or socially- how can they make informed decision?

The fact many others were accepted from a variety of other nationalities, including some which are perhaps not generally 'welcome and appreciated' in such conservative and Catholic communities as Einsiedeln- indicate clearly this was not about narrow-mindedness bordering on 'racism' though. If you are going to have local voting rights on major local issues- you should indicate you have some perception of how that community ticks. Our local paper is a bit of a rag- but OH took a subscription and reads it daily for that reason. The fact he has not asked for Swiss nationality in 39 years, and his wife is not interested (as not tax issue with Germany- but clearly recently with US)- etc- and possibly his attitude 'à la Zurich ETH professor' played a large rôle I imagine.

Last edited by Odile; 14.10.2014 at 13:12.
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Old 14.10.2014, 12:55
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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Sorry, nice try but wrong comparison
Why? It's all about knowing the rules and playing the game. With a little effort on his part, he would have sailed through; same for my analogy above.

From an objective point of view, it seems he wanted to have the benefit of the red passport just for the convenience, without putting in the effort to at least get acquainted with the community of which he wanted to become a member.
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  #74  
Old 14.10.2014, 13:10
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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But that's the thing, he did contribute. This is a country that issued him residence permits based on his capacity to fill a gap in a certain field and contribute with his taxes, and it kept doing so for 39 years. And there comes a time when he's asking for something that many people get anyway. He might be not interested in local politics, he might be a lonely man, so what's then? It wasn't about a specific psychological profile they asked when they first let him in. Some are friendly with the locals, likeable and interested in their immediate surroundings. Fair enough, each contributes with what they can.
But nobody at any point ever promised him that in return for his academic or fiscal contribution, that he would be offered citizenship or any other priviledge.

If he thought he wasn't being compensated fairly for his contribution, he should have asked for a salary raise.
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Old 14.10.2014, 13:14
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

I think we are all assuming facts not in evidence, and it seems a little unfair to be calling this poor chap "arrogant" or "haughty" when likely none of us know him personally and very likely did not participate in any interviews with him. the other applicants were generally born and/or raised in the village, save for a woman whose son is presently being raised and educated in the village and some German couples who were savvy enough to apply jointly. and I think we can all hazard a guess as to how invasive the questionning of the former CEO of Roche likely was.

again, this dude's application was bound to be DOA under the circumstances, simple as that.
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  #76  
Old 14.10.2014, 13:15
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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5. Taking the interview process seriously
Nope. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Integration is meant to be taken seriously. The interview is supposed to be an honest assessment, you should not have to study for it - it's not a test of intelligence or learning, it's a test of integration.



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You mean he shouldn't have been honest? If you have three settled children in Switzerland and when retiring and want to spend an extended period of time abroad then I'd say this is a perfectly valid reason for citizenship.
Clearly it's a valid reason for wanting citizenship but it's an insane reason for granting it.

And of course he should've been honest. And if his honest answers lead him to being rejected for citizenship then that's the correct course.
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Old 14.10.2014, 13:40
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

After reading the full details offered by einsiedeln I find it incredible that he was denied citizenship after such a long time residing in switzerland and growing children and a family in switzerland. It seems like the local einsiedeln community has a personal issue with the guy.

I would guess that most Swiss people do not know the details about local politics, however rich people can come to switzerland and buy citizenship.

Again, this must be a personal problem between the local leaders in eisiedeln and the american Professor.




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Einsiedeln (SZ) rejected the Swiss citizenship application of a 75 year-old retired American, who had been an chemical engineering professor at the ETH, due to lack of integration. According to 20 Minuten, his application was rejected specifically due to his lack of knowledge of local politics and geography although he passed tests of basic Swiss political knowledge and demonstrated sufficient German skills. Furthermore, his financial affairs were in order and he had a good reputation. He has lived in Einsiedeln for 39 years, raised three children there and taught and researched at the ETH for 30 years. The naturalisation commission stated it presumed that he was seeking citizenship for personal benefits and security, although it is not clear from the article whether this weighed on the decision. His CHF 3'600 application fee was not refunded:

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zentrals...rgert-25550285
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  #78  
Old 14.10.2014, 14:14
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

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I think we are all assuming facts not in evidence, and it seems a little unfair to be calling this poor chap "arrogant" or "haughty" .
We know several things:
  • He was very intelligent.
  • He was aware of what simple facts he needed to learn.
  • He chose not to learn them *
  • He was quite capable of speaking to a group of people without "stage-fright".

* assuming he didn't suddenly get dementia or something similar which prevented him from memorising information.

I'm not sure how many other conclusions we could draw from this with regard to his decision not to learn these facts.
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Old 14.10.2014, 14:44
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Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

He is a productive member of Swiss society for a few decades. He has Swiss born children. He passed the required knowledge exam. He Speaks german and paid the required large fees.
And finally he failed the final interview? It looks like a personal problem in between the Einsiedeln community and the American with a German wife.

Honestly I am shocked.
Is it possible that I work in switzerland for 10-30 years, build a family and be traded like I am not deserving swiss citizenship after 30 years?





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We know several things:
  • He was very intelligent.
  • He was aware of what simple facts he needed to learn.
  • He chose not to learn them *
  • He was quite capable of speaking to a group of people without "stage-fright".

* assuming he didn't suddenly get dementia or something similar which prevented him from memorising information.

I'm not sure how many other conclusions we could draw from this with regard to his decision not to learn these facts.
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Old 14.10.2014, 14:48
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Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

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It seems like the local einsiedeln community has a personal issue with the guy.
Yep, that's normally the reason, and a good one.

Tom
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