Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 14.10.2014, 14:49
crazykittylady's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Glatt
Posts: 770
Groaned at 117 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 687 Times in 341 Posts
crazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond reputecrazykittylady has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
I understand and agree that there should be a test and in my eyes can the bar be set quite high: I think immigrants need to put an effort into learning the local language in order to really take part in social life (in Germany is the biggest group of immigrants Turkish and the fact that first gen men learn German at work while their wives can live in the country for decades without even minimal German is causing a parallel society which is bad). I also think it's important that any immigrant should understand the social and political system and within the democratic spectrum agree to the fundamentals. You should not just get a passport because it is convenient, you should identify yourself with the new country. But I fail to see why the exact village should be of importance at all. If one knows all the cantons, but not the third village up the hill in the direction he never drives as he goes to Zurich - does this really disqualify him from being a good Swiss?
It's a bit idealistic to assume people need to know anything about their country to become citizens? I met a lot of people in switzerland that can't compare their system of government with others in the world because they know nothing about it.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 14.10.2014, 14:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,388
Groaned at 369 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 22,389 Times in 10,075 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
Nope. It's not meant to be taken seriously. Integration is meant to be taken seriously. The interview is supposed to be an honest assessment, you should not have to study for it - it's not a test of intelligence or learning, it's a test of integration.
It is actually a subtle mixture of both- having done the assessment training for our area. And my interpretation would probable vary hugely from my 'colleagues''. The decision was not a 'Swiss' thing but based on the assessment of a small handful of people. They were clearly not 'racist' as many others were accepted from very different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. Not sure about Einsiedeln, but when OH applied for his naturalisation, and a cousin of mine too, they had to give a couple or more of personal referees from the community- who could be approached to ascertain OH's involvement with the community over a long period of time and since his arrival here. If the only referees given were from Zurich, he would not have helped much.

Talking about 'racism' or discrimination- there is nothing that gets more up local noses here than a Genevan who comes and make ridiculous demands here and view the locals from the top of their Genevan nose. I'd imagine same in Schwyz with Zurchers. Those who get stuck in will me more than welcome- but those who don't will not (we can argue if this is right or wrong, of course. Those Genevans who've come to retire here, or just come for hols and week-ends, and start petitions about taking the bells off the cows, stopping the Church bells from ringing and complaining about farmers muckspreading, etc- and on top of that do not pay their taxes here- certainly do *iss people off big time, lol).

I don't expect people to be able to compare systems of government etc, but if they choose to apply for the nationality of another country, I would expect to know something about the systems there, be it gvt, health care, education, basic culture, geography and history. If you've lived in a country for 30+ years- you should really have some clue! Are the Swiss people you are talking about applying for another nationality, no!

NO decision will be made on failing to answer any specific question- but an overall 'feel' for a basic understanding and integration. People will often say they've failed due to ONE (or two or three) silly question/s- but in reality this does not happen. It is a combination of lots of factors. Same for driving test, to some extent- one reason might be cited on paper, but it is probably not the whole issue.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #83  
Old 14.10.2014, 14:57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SZ
Posts: 417
Groaned at 4 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 341 Times in 179 Posts
dmarkd has earned some respectdmarkd has earned some respect
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
I can't see what difference 39 years makes? I don't think time should be a factor in any way.
Of course time should be a factor. If you've spent over half your life in CH and also lived in the area since 1975, it's not unreasonable to expect this to demonstrate your commitment and contribution to the country. At the very least this ought to have given this guy the benefit of the doubt if he messed up on some smaller questions.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 14.10.2014, 14:58
3Wishes's Avatar
Moderately Amused
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bern area
Posts: 6,524
Groaned at 43 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 9,174 Times in 4,358 Posts
3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute3Wishes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
... I don't socialise with nutters...
Yeah, you keep telling yourself that but here you are on EF with all of us every day.

Quote:
View Post
As I said before, one does not simply become Swiss. One has to first become a citizen of a town. It is the community who decides who will become a citizen of the community. Attached to that comes the citizenship of the canton and finally the federal citizenship...
Slightly OT, but I find it odd that I'll officially get citizenship of my husband's Heimatort, but it's the community where we currently live that will do the interview and make the decision. It seems the very localized nature of the process is not in favor of people who live in the sticks. Odds are this professor would have had better luck trying to naturalize in Zürich.

Quote:
View Post
It's a bit idealistic to assume people need to know anything about their country to become citizens? I met a lot of people in switzerland that can't compare their system of government with others in the world because they know nothing about it.
The same could be said for the USA. I read an article a few years back that more than 50% of Americans would fail the citizenship test that foreigners have to take before being naturalized. So I don't think it's just a Swiss thing.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 3Wishes for this useful post:
  #85  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:03
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,388
Groaned at 369 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 22,389 Times in 10,075 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Agree, time should be an issue- as if after that long a person has no clue about the area s/he lives in (and as said above, a fail will never be on 1 or 2 specific question/s) - and the country, and does not have local referees or friends- then it is indicative of poor integration. Time makes this worse, not better.

There is an arrangement between the Gemeinde/Commune where you live and your OH's Heimatsort or Commune d'Origine- to avoid having to travel and expense, etc, to help the applicant. It makes sense that the applicant should show personal contact and integration in the area where they live, and not the Heimatsort- which might be very different. As said before, myself + OH only visited my Commune d'Origine once, as my family came to settle in the region where we now live, and where I was born and bred, at least 3 generations ago.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:10
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1,072
Groaned at 93 Times in 54 Posts
Thanked 1,665 Times in 573 Posts
Busby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond reputeBusby has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I would guess that most Swiss people do not know the details about local politics, however rich people can come to switzerland and buy citizenship.

.


Talking out of the back of your hat won't get us anywhere.


But please tell us more about these rich people who buy Swiss nationality.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:25
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,296
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,219 Times in 5,025 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

I think what many people are also missing is that he didn't even bother to learn the required information; this for me speaks volumes more than simply not knowing it in the first place. As far as the Einsiedeln authorities are concerned, if he couldn't even be bothered to learn what he was spoon fed in order to pass the exam, it doesn't speak much for his motivation to be naturalised.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #88  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:45
me.anon's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: thun
Posts: 1,454
Groaned at 22 Times in 16 Posts
Thanked 1,768 Times in 870 Posts
me.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond reputeme.anon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
. . . But I fail to see why the exact village should be of importance at all. If one knows all the cantons, but not the third village up the hill in the direction he never drives as he goes to Zurich - does this really disqualify him from being a good Swiss?
I agree and definitely think the balance is wrong in this case. Most applicants for citizenship cannot claim to have contributed to Swiss national resources (ETH etc.). The applicant here has, and so some weight should have been given to that to compensate for the lack of detailed local knowledge.
Also, an academic (who is not the typical citizenship candidate) may appear to be "aloof" and "distant" at the interview simply because they (academics) tend to channel and focus their mental resources in a way which ordinary people can not or do not. So, for instance, he may be able to describe in great detail an industrial process for producing sulphuric acid, but may not have clue on what day the rubbish is collected in Gross (because the cleaning lady deals with all that) or my not know how his house is heated because his wife looks after all that sort of thing.

In some cases, of course, where a person or family clearly does not fit in, like the case here http://www.nzz.ch/zuerich/region/wer...len-1.18385108 , then it is useful to be able to speak of "poor integration" and "lack of local knowledge" simply because these are concrete statements which can be used where the real issues cannot be so plainly spoken. However, if everything else fits including command of the local language, then an incomplete local knowledge or diminished local circle of friends/acquaintances should not outweigh the many positive characteristics.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank me.anon for this useful post:
This user groans at me.anon for this post:
  #89  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:51
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,167
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
Most applicants for citizenship cannot claim to have contributed to Swiss national resources (ETH etc.).
Einsiedeln had by law to answer the question whether he has been contributing to Einsiedeln and is likely to continue to do so - not whether he contributed anywhere else in the past.
I don't mind people arguing that the law is stupid, but I don't understand why one would want to blame Einsiedeln for applying the law they are subjected to.

I am not a big fan of Swiss citizenship laws either, but if the Swiss are, incl. Einsiedeln, I fail to identify a question to argue about. My failure, I guess, do I add with (genuine) modesty.
__________________
Es wird nichts ausgelassen, um mich hier herauszuekeln. Ein Lehrbuch. False accusations and attacks continue. There is no stopping righteous people when they are wrong.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #90  
Old 14.10.2014, 15:56
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,296
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,219 Times in 5,025 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
Also, an academic (who is not the typical citizenship candidate) may appear to be "aloof" and "distant" at the interview simply because they (academics) tend to channel and focus their mental resources in a way which ordinary people can not or do not. So, for instance, he may be able to describe in great detail an industrial process for producing sulphuric acid, but may not have clue on what day the rubbish is collected in Gross (because the cleaning lady deals with all that) or my not know how his house is heated because his wife looks after all that sort of thing.
What a load of simplistic bollocks.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank PaddyG for this useful post:
  #91  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:11
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,971
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
...spoon fed...
I didn't read anything in the report that suggested any of the applicants were "spoon fed".

Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:23
Confloozed's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zurich
Posts: 4,704
Groaned at 135 Times in 119 Posts
Thanked 4,831 Times in 2,299 Posts
Confloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond reputeConfloozed has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
Kanton Schwyz... what a surprise. Seems to be the Kanton equivalent of Royston Vasey.
This sort of thing happens in canton Zurich as well...
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:23
mirfield's Avatar
Moddy McModface
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,208
Groaned at 51 Times in 45 Posts
Thanked 8,110 Times in 2,958 Posts
mirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond reputemirfield has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
allowing this guy in is giving him a potentially very significant voice in local affairs. It's not unreasonable that they would like him to at least show an interest in what those affairs consist of.
I see what you're saying, but I don't really buy that. What if he'd already got citizenship in ZH and then moved there? Would they remove his little red book for not being integrated?

Quote:
View Post
In my book, not being able to list six friends in Einsiedeln already made him an Einsiedler (recluse). He evidently wanted to make it official.
Admit it; you only opened this thread to make that joke, didn't you?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank mirfield for this useful post:
  #94  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:33
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,485
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
AFAIK extended absences from Switzerland (6 months maybe) even with a C permit results in termination of your C permit.

It's not really convenience. His whole life is here.
if he wants to leave for an extended period and come back, he can re-apply for a permit like everyone else.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:37
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 11,485
Groaned at 246 Times in 157 Posts
Thanked 13,338 Times in 5,682 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
It's a bit idealistic to assume people need to know anything about their country to become citizens? I met a lot of people in switzerland that can't compare their system of government with others in the world because they know nothing about it.
not really. if they don't know anything about it, then why do they want to join?

it would be like someone saying:

"hey, i wanna join your club. let me in"
"so, do you like rowing then?"
"oh, it's a rowing club? nah. don't know anything about it, but i hear you guys get 50% off at the lakeside bar."
"erm. no thanks. bye"
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Phil_MCR for this useful post:
  #96  
Old 14.10.2014, 16:44
bigblue2's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glarus
Posts: 6,153
Groaned at 309 Times in 249 Posts
Thanked 9,534 Times in 3,872 Posts
bigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond reputebigblue2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Retired ETH professor: After 39 years not integrated enough for Swiss naturalisat

Quote:
View Post
I don't socialise with nutters

I've been down the pub with you, I assure you you do.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 14.10.2014, 17:01
cannut's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 6,446
Groaned at 175 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 5,517 Times in 3,043 Posts
cannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond reputecannut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

If he is a republican , right decision

Last edited by cannut; 14.10.2014 at 20:20.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 14.10.2014, 17:09
PaddyG's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pensier, Fribourg
Posts: 8,296
Groaned at 107 Times in 91 Posts
Thanked 14,219 Times in 5,025 Posts
PaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond reputePaddyG has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
I didn't read anything in the report that suggested any of the applicants were "spoon fed".

So you didn't see the posts by olygirl and then myself where it describes that required information was made available to the applicants?
And from our own experience, we were handed a couple of sheets of facts and were told to learn them as we might be asked about them at the interview, which we were.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 14.10.2014, 17:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich Unterland
Posts: 3,318
Groaned at 145 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 4,850 Times in 1,930 Posts
smoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

He was/is a member of a tennis club and a sailing club. Both "elitist" sports.

He should have joined the Mannerriege, Mens Choir, Shooting club, Spitex, been a volunteer Fireman, and owned his own chair at the local Stammtisch, and played regular Jass (and drunk beer and local wines) . He failed to learn what is important in becomming a Swiss!

My neighbor is also a retired ETH professor, and if he wasn`t a born and bred Swiss, he`d fail the test. For sure!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank smoky for this useful post:
  #100  
Old 14.10.2014, 18:01
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Letzeburg
Posts: 1,971
Groaned at 68 Times in 51 Posts
Thanked 5,005 Times in 1,780 Posts
crazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond reputecrazygringo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: American professor denied Swiss citizenship

Quote:
View Post
So you didn't see the posts by olygirl and then myself where it describes that required information was made available to the applicants?
And from our own experience, we were handed a couple of sheets of facts and were told to learn them as we might be asked about them at the interview, which we were.
I did in fact read the report summary where it highlighted the documentation that had been provided to the applicant, and the nature of the information required to be demonstrated during the interview is also readily available on the internet. we must just have different definitions of "spoon fed".
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Can I get Swiss citizenship after 6 years of marriage to a Swiss citizen? nonameface13 Permits/visas/government 22 21.01.2013 13:40
MyOne (Manor) Credit Card denied, american FATCA again? runningdeer Finance/banking/taxation 12 16.10.2012 12:10
Swiss inheritance law applied to American with dual Swiss citizenship bmjnyc Finance/banking/taxation 5 11.03.2012 13:58
Your American Citizenship bedevil Permits/visas/government 12 03.08.2011 22:24
Swiss citizenship for babies born to Non Swiss Nationals? AlainaS Family matters/health 31 26.06.2009 00:41


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0