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Old 23.10.2014, 17:04
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

1. Foreigners residing in Switzerland and traveling by train (crossing borders) have to carry a valid traveldocument and their residence permit.

2. There are no identity checks within Schengen except if they have to check ID for reasons of selfdefence or any initial suspicion. This translates into; they can do whatever they want.

3. Mobile identity checks within any country are still possible and legal.
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Old 23.10.2014, 17:05
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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The Schengen Accords and the Swiss implementing legislation state that only customs inspections may be undertaken, not passport control.
Rubbish. They have the right to check the identity of anyone crossing the border. Asking for the passport, if carried, is clearly the easiest way to do that.
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Old 23.10.2014, 17:24
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
Show the law, including Articel number etc. Also consider any treaty between the Canton of Ticino with the Swiss Federation, and any SBB/CFF/FFS memorandums with the Grenzwachkorps.

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First, that Swiss customs officials do not have the right to carry out passport controls. According to the Schengen Accords these are to be carried out at the first point of entry into 'Schengenland' by immigration officials.
EU rgulation No 562/2006

Quote:
Checks within the territory

The abolition of border control at internal borders shall not affect:
(a)
the exercise of police powers by the competent authorities of the Member States under national law, insofar as the exercise of those powers does not have an effect equivalent to border checks; that shall also apply in border areas. Within the meaning of the first sentence, the exercise of police powers may not, in particular, be considered equivalent to the exercise of border checks when the police measures:
(i)
do not have border control as an objective,
(ii)
are based on general police information and experience regarding possible threats to public security and aim, in particular, to combat cross-border crime,
(iii)
are devised and executed in a manner clearly distinct from systematic checks on persons at the external borders,
(iv)
are carried out on the basis of spot-checks;
(b)
security checks on persons carried out at ports and airports by the competent authorities under the law of each Member State, by port or airport officials or carriers, provided that such checks are also carried out on persons travelling within a Member State;
(c)
the possibility for a Member State to provide by law for an obligation to hold or carry papers and documents;
(d)
the obligation on third-country nationals to report their presence on the territory of any Member State pursuant to the provisions of Article 22 of the Schengen Convention.
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Swiss customs officials have no right to enforce fines. They can levy fines but only courts can enforce the fines after providing due process.
Swiss customs officials have the right to enforce the law. The law is clear either pay for the ticket, or leave.
This is not just a General Purchase Agreement or a SBB General Terms and Conditions. It is a full blown, actual, and real law.

Edit: And it is not a fine. It is a surcharge.
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Old 23.10.2014, 17:41
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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The Schengen Accords and the Swiss implementing legislation state that only customs inspections may be undertaken, not passport control. Border guards don't have the right to enforce traffic tickets. They cannot even enforce fines, although they could refer someone to a court which, if it provides due process, could enforce a fine.
You must, as a matter of urgency, contact Giorgio Napolitano and ensure he declares war against Switzerland. It's the only way to keep these mountain trolls in their place.
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Old 23.10.2014, 17:55
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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You assume I had not the ticket.. Plus, it is not not the point I am rematking:

The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
First, that Swiss customs officials do not have the right to carry out passport controls. According to the Schengen Accords these are to be carried out at the first point of entry into 'Schengenland' by immigration officials. Of course, customs officials can ask for identification if they have grounds to suspect someone of committing a crime against the customs laws.

Swiss customs officials have no right to enforce fines. They can levy fines but only courts can enforce the fines after providing due process.
So then Italian border control are also in breach. Do you want to sue them as well?

I tried to cross from Switzerland to Italy once and was stopped and asked for ID. I actually had forgotten my passport/ID card. I didn't even have a driver's license. For some reason I only had bank and credit cards in my wallet. I was denied entry into Italy. Bastardi tutti quanti!
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Old 23.10.2014, 18:34
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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You assume I had not the ticket.. Plus, it is not not the point I am rematking:

The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
First, that Swiss customs officials do not have the right to carry out passport controls. According to the Schengen Accords these are to be carried out at the first point of entry into 'Schengenland' by immigration officials. Of course, customs officials can ask for identification if they have grounds to suspect someone of committing a crime against the customs laws.

Swiss customs officials have no right to enforce fines. They can levy fines but only courts can enforce the fines after providing due process.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

Abraham Lincoln
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Old 23.10.2014, 18:54
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Are you coming from an Anglo Saxon country?

I ask that because that is IMO a cultural thing. In the US or UK you don't need to carry an ID, but in most of continental Europe (AFAIK) you must carry an ID so you can be identified by the police at any time.

Though I have never been asked my ID (maybe I look like a good boy) I have seen street controls in countries like Belgium, Germany and France (mainly for immigration but maybe for terrorism).

And in the French-Belgian border I have seen that as well (French police). Of course you don't call it "border control" but French policemen a few hundred meters from the border in the motorway checking IDs and papers of "suspicious" drivers... call it as you wish if you don't want to call it border control.
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Old 23.10.2014, 18:57
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Maybe if you told us exactly what happened- it would be easier to comment in a more positive manner. So perhaps start again, from the beginning, ok.
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Old 23.10.2014, 18:57
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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and Swiss police have the right and duty to enforce all Swiss laws, and have the right to ask for ID at any time, for any reason.
Which is the correct answer. Period.

And I grew up (well not really, but that's another story) knowing this to be the case in the US. And in the last 5+ years of not being in the States, no police authority anywhere in Europe or Asia has ever asked me for it. But I've had it with me whenever it MIGHT be required, bc.... It's the law.
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Old 23.10.2014, 20:43
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Switzerland isn't in EU, the Grenzwachkorps can check anything: DL, car registration, ID, permits ...

They have more rights than cantonal policemen.

Btw most Swiss are against Schengen.
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  #31  
Old 23.10.2014, 23:00
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Btw most Swiss are against Schengen.
I suppose that is motivated by the want for stricter immigration controls. Though it would give jobs back for border patrols....

I'm guessing the business lobby (or equivalent bodies) were mainly dominant in pushing for joining Schengen, i.e. encouraging easier connections to most of the rest of Europe, saving time, opening borders and so on....
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Old 24.10.2014, 00:51
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Of course, customs officials can ask for identification if they have grounds to suspect someone of committing a crime against the customs laws.
Wrong, swiss law enforcement, including border officers, can do ID checks at anytime, without a reason or grounds.

It goes further, in Bern Canton, the Cantonal police and any dorfsheriff (aka verwaltungspolizei) can enter your house for law enforcement purposes without a warrant.
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Old 24.10.2014, 01:34
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Wrong, swiss law enforcement, including border officers, can do ID checks at anytime, without a reason or grounds.

It goes further, in Bern Canton, the Cantonal police and any dorfsheriff (aka verwaltungspolizei) can enter your house for law enforcement purposes without a warrant.
Doesn't this bother anybody at all? Bueller? Bueller?
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  #34  
Old 24.10.2014, 06:49
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Not really, they have a tendency to knock and ask for entry, rather than breaking down doors accompanied by flashbangs and stun grenades.

It's a small but essential difference.
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  #35  
Old 24.10.2014, 08:45
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Are you coming from an Anglo Saxon country?

I ask that because that is IMO a cultural thing. In the US or UK you don't need to carry an ID, but in most of continental Europe (AFAIK) you must carry an ID so you can be identified by the police at any time.

Though I have never been asked my ID (maybe I look like a good boy) I have seen street controls in countries like Belgium, Germany and France (mainly for immigration but maybe for terrorism).

And in the French-Belgian border I have seen that as well (French police). Of course you don't call it "border control" but French policemen a few hundred meters from the border in the motorway checking IDs and papers of "suspicious" drivers... call it as you wish if you don't want to call it border control.

ID cards / passports aren't obligatory in CH. If you don't want one you don't have to have one unless you are crossing the border. That you can be asked to identify yourself is obvious - how you do it is your problem.
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  #36  
Old 24.10.2014, 09:59
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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ID cards / passports aren't obligatory in CH. If you don't want one you don't have to have one unless you are crossing the border. That you can be asked to identify yourself is obvious - how you do it is your problem.
It's true that you don't have to carry a passport or ID Cards. Still the police can do identity checks. If you don't have one they can bring you to the next police office to find out who you are.

If a ID check happens to me I always ask if there is a reason they are stopping me. The answer is always: "We are searching for someone that....". Better to have an ID on you and save time. As a foreigner I would also carry a copy of the residence permit.
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Old 24.10.2014, 10:17
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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If a ID check happens to me I always ask if there is a reason they are stopping me. The answer is always: "We are searching for someone that....". Better to have an ID on you and save time.
Likewise.

A couple years ago I was stopped while wlaking in my village, 50m from home. Cantonal cops cruising in a car.

Asked why, "you fit a description...".

Tom
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Old 24.10.2014, 10:18
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

I thought it's a Friday thread, but soon realised that it was started yesterday
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Old 24.10.2014, 14:13
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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I don't know about others, but I would not travel between countries without a valid train or bus ticket and without valid papers like passport or ID or permit. So don't know why the big deal that border control wants to check papers.
I might be missing something...?
The war in Syria? Thousands of people are fleeing their home and heading to northern europe via Italy, often by train. It's quite possible that some of them don't have the correct ticket for their journey.
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Old 24.10.2014, 14:16
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

The OP is Italian according to his introduction btw.

But as he has not come back to explain in more detail what happened- it's difficult to comment further.

Re DakRambo's post above, I imagine that with all the unrest and trouble in Calais at the moment, many immigrants heading North via Italy and Switzerland are now thinking about alternatives- and Switzerland may well become the last Eldorado for some, or more. Add the to that the concerns, some may call it paranoia, about Ebola, and I imagine there will be more and more checks on trains from the South- rightly or wrongly. The Border Police are of course totally in their right to do so.

Last edited by Odile; 24.10.2014 at 14:31.
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