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  #81  
Old 27.10.2014, 16:59
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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I think I have to correct myself on the 25km, I think that might even be within 25km of a major railway station in the country. Could that be right or did my brain fart it out?
You may mixing up different countries:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zollgrenzbezirk

Switzerland has AFAIK no defined limit.
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  #82  
Old 27.10.2014, 17:12
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Maybe the case Atiqullah Adil vs. Minister voor Immigratie, Integratie en Asiel is of interest.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...EX:62012CJ0278

But that won't help OP neither. *evilgrin*

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 27.10.2014 at 17:43.
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  #83  
Old 27.10.2014, 17:19
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

This is soooo going to be you soon...

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  #84  
Old 27.10.2014, 17:40
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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I think I have to correct myself on the 25km, I think that might even be within 25km of a major railway station in the country. Could that be right or did my brain fart it out?
What if they drove in, rode a bike, or hiked in? Even though they may not check at the border, I understood customs can check you even after you are way inside the country.


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You may mixing up different countries:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zollgrenzbezirk

Switzerland has AFAIK no defined limit.
Something like that.
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  #85  
Old 27.10.2014, 17:49
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

They work independently up to 30km of any border- beyond that, they will only work in collaboration with local police - but there is no official limit. If they are in hot pursuit, they will not drop the chase at 30km- but ensure communication has been made requesting support from police.

In French only, from 24 Hrs newspaper:

Chacun son domaine

Pas question pour autant de marcher sur les plates-bandes des polices cantonales. «Nous agissons avant tout sur un périmètre de 30 kilomètres à partir de la frontière, ou au maximum jusqu’à la ville la plus proche. Dans certains cas exceptionnels, nous pouvons agir sur tout le territoire cantonal, mais en collaboration avec la police», explique Jean-Noël Monnet, commandant du corps des gardes-frontière de la région Vaud-Valais.
Pas de doublon non plus au niveau des compétences. «Nous interceptons les suspects, puis nous les livrons à la police cantonale. Nous sommes en fait les chasseurs de première ligne», précise Bernard Bapst, chef de service de lutte contre les stupéfiants.
Si Schengen n’a pas diminué les contrôles de douanes, pour le métier de gardes-frontière, l’entrée dans ce grand espace a créé une véritable révolution. Patrouille volante ou contrôle dans les trains internationaux sont désormais le quotidien des 200?agents du corps de Vaud-Valais. Parmi leur attribution, un tiers concerne les fraudes liées à l’immigration, un tiers la recherche de personnes, de véhicules ou d’objets volés, et un tiers les marchandises, principalement le trafic de stupéfiants.
La mort des frontières aurait-elle rendu les contrôles plus ardus? «Maintenant, nous devons cibler nos interventions. Nous travaillons donc en collaboration avec beaucoup d’unités. Dernièrement, avec la police italienne, nous avons mené des opérations embarquées. Des gardes-frontière ont pris place à bord d’un train en Italie, puis contrôlé des individus durant le trajet, indique Jean-Noël Monnet.

Last paragraph talks about joint operations on trains with Italian Police.
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  #86  
Old 27.10.2014, 20:22
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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After her/his/its team lost and she/he/it was escorted back to the border the full power of the Grenzwachtkoprs is no clear:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/panorama...story/20219957

The Grenzwachtkorps is an armed unit of the Federal Finance Department. The escorting was done by Cantonal Police Corps. The Grenzwachtkorps cannot arrest people , only stop them and hand them over to the Cantonal Police Force in charge.
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  #87  
Old 27.10.2014, 23:15
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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I think I have to correct myself on the 25km, I think that might even be within 25km of a major railway station in the country. Could that be right or did my brain fart it out?
You may be mixing up things. There's a thing called Zoll(frei)grenze, currently at 300CHF. Purchases in neighboring countries are duty free and VAT free if the total sum of your purchases during your current trip stays below the Zollfreigrenze (there are additional conditions attached which depend on the various product groups, e.g. meat, alcoholics, etc). This limit used to apply only if your home was at least 20km from the border, but this limit was dropped when the current regime was activated this past July.

As for collaboration of swiss law enforcement authorities (customs, border patrols, police, etc) with neighboring authorities:
CH has active Staatsverträge with Germany (SR 0.360.136.1, Schweiz-Deutscher Polizeivertrag from 1999) and France(SR 0.360.349.1 from 2007) that cover this subject. It seems that the one with Italy is currently being updated with the intent to make it as broad as the other two.

I didn't read the treaty with France. The one with germany basically says that the border cantons(BS, BL, ZH, AG, SH, TG, SG) allow german authorities to act legally on swiss ground, as do the german Bundesländer (parts of Baden-Württemberg and Bayern).

The treaty explicitly mentions situations that bear either immedate threat (Gefahr im Verzug) and/or may require use of force (Gefahrenbekämpfung und Kriminaltitätsabwehr, Gefahr für die öffentliche Sicherheit), in which case authorities on location are allowed to request active help and coordinate actions directly, namely without any centrals' prior knowledge or consent.

Article 3 explicitly states that both parties act "considering the security needs" of its counterparty ("handeln dabei unter Berücksichtigung der Sicherheitsinteressen des anderen Vertragsstaates"). As such foreign authorities will most probably keep chasing suspects until national replacement units have arrived(however long that may take, or however far this carries them into foreign territory), which would probably be the "extraordinary circumstances" mentioned in the interview in french.
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Old 29.10.2014, 21:08
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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You may be mixing up things. There's a thing called Zoll(frei)grenze, currently at 300CHF. Purchases in neighboring countries are duty free and VAT free if the total sum of your purchases during your current trip stays below the Zollfreigrenze (there are additional conditions attached which depend on the various product groups, e.g. meat, alcoholics, etc). This limit used to apply only if your home was at least 20km from the border, but this limit was dropped when the current regime was activated this past July.

As for collaboration of swiss law enforcement authorities (customs, border patrols, police, etc) with neighboring authorities:
CH has active Staatsverträge with Germany (SR 0.360.136.1, Schweiz-Deutscher Polizeivertrag from 1999) and France(SR 0.360.349.1 from 2007) that cover this subject. It seems that the one with Italy is currently being updated with the intent to make it as broad as the other two.

I didn't read the treaty with France. The one with germany basically says that the border cantons(BS, BL, ZH, AG, SH, TG, SG) allow german authorities to act legally on swiss ground, as do the german Bundesländer (parts of Baden-Württemberg and Bayern).

The treaty explicitly mentions situations that bear either immedate threat (Gefahr im Verzug) and/or may require use of force (Gefahrenbekämpfung und Kriminaltitätsabwehr, Gefahr für die öffentliche Sicherheit), in which case authorities on location are allowed to request active help and coordinate actions directly, namely without any centrals' prior knowledge or consent.

Article 3 explicitly states that both parties act "considering the security needs" of its counterparty ("handeln dabei unter Berücksichtigung der Sicherheitsinteressen des anderen Vertragsstaates"). As such foreign authorities will most probably keep chasing suspects until national replacement units have arrived(however long that may take, or however far this carries them into foreign territory), which would probably be the "extraordinary circumstances" mentioned in the interview in french.
Thanks, seems to work the other way too!
I have often seen German ambulances and emergency doctors attending at accidents on the Swiss side of the border.
Maybe the German approach is better? So far as I understand they usually send a doctor in addition to the ambulance whereas in Switzerland you just get the CHF 1,000 ambulance?
If I ever need an ambulance I will try to persuade my wife to drag me the 3 Km to the German border !? More comprehensive service and lower price?
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Old 31.10.2014, 00:03
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Thanks, seems to work the other way too!
You're right in that I didn't make it clear: this "giving authority" is reciprocal (though restricted to the regions listed in the respective treaty).

The ambulances are a different kind of beast as they are not part of the...let me call it "state force".

Ambulances will need to be accepted as medical service providers, which in general is dealt with at the Kanton level and requires licensing.

And the Krankenkassen will need to agree to pay for their work, unless you accept to pay yourself. If their cost were not covered by insurance they would need to provide superior service, e.g. a doctor in the car. And of course there's the issue of legally ignoring laws, speed limits and similar come to mind (which may or may not be dealt with as part of the licensing process, dunno).
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  #90  
Old 31.10.2014, 00:08
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Thanks, seems to work the other way too!
I have often seen German ambulances and emergency doctors attending at accidents on the Swiss side of the border.
Maybe the German approach is better? So far as I understand they usually send a doctor in addition to the ambulance whereas in Switzerland you just get the CHF 1,000 ambulance?
If I ever need an ambulance I will try to persuade my wife to drag me the 3 Km to the German border !? More comprehensive service and lower price?

This made me laugh out loud. I know people in the USA who go a long time to a different ER for cheaper costs, it's kind of funny but sad all at the same time
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  #91  
Old 31.10.2014, 08:32
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

The Schengen Area is the area comprising 26 European countries that have abolished passport and any other type of border control at their common borders. The Swiss conduct nonstop border checks under the excuse of customs enforcement as Switzerland is not part of the EU free trade agreement.

Furthermore there are many instances when Austrian police will conduct border controls with Hungary and at the border with Germany. However this is done when they are looking for something specific. So in this sense Switzerland is very special to be able to check on whoever and whenever even though this is Schengen. Got to love Switzerland!
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  #92  
Old 31.10.2014, 10:17
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

you misunderstand the Schengen Agreement. There can and are border control on a regular basis all over the zone.

And Schengen or not, Switzerland is not in the EU and as such has limits for merchandise crossing the border.

In ALL the times I've been stopped at the border, I've NEVER been asked for ID. And I cross it a lot.

What would you say to the experience of the Italian border guard when I'm exiting Italy asking me where I live. Driving a TI-plated car. He's also looking for Italians dodgy financial obligations.

But you don't mind that, right?
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Old 31.10.2014, 10:40
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Back to the original post, I saw this happen once on the train from Milano back to Lausanne. It was not so much immigration, but customs. They asked for your passport first, but then the ladies sitting next to me....They asked to see in their shopping bags and wanted receipts for their purchases. Right then and there they made the ladies pay custom taxes on their purchases. Passport check first probably to make sure they didn't live in Italy where the purchases were made.
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Old 31.10.2014, 10:42
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

Border controls are not allowed in Schengen, and ID checks in border areas are regulated by Article 21 of the Schengen borders code:

Article 21
Checks within the territory

The abolition of border control at internal borders shall not affect:

(a) the exercise of police powers by the competent authorities of the Member States under national law, insofar as the exercise of those powers does not have an effect equivalent to border checks; that shall also apply in border areas. Within the meaning of the first sentence, the exercise of police powers may not, in particular, be considered equivalent to the exercise of border checks when the police measures:

(i) do not have border control as an objective,
(ii) are based on general police information and experience regarding possible threats to public security and aim, in particular, to combat cross-border crime,
(iii) are devised and executed in a manner clearly distinct from systematic checks on persons at the external borders,
(iv) are carried out on the basis of spot-checks;


However authorities have police powers and they can single people for vehicle inspections and id check.
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Old 31.10.2014, 15:39
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

I'd better not tell you about the checks that the undercover cops were doing on the 1732 Zurich/Milano last night then. They were checking some people out by Thalwil.

What happens on the train is not border control. They usually actively seek certain people and are often interested in shopping bags as well.

I've seen them active at many point in the train journey and never have I seen undercover or uniformed officials checking all passports.

Schengen is about free movement of persons across borders within Schengen; checking ID in Switzerland is something else.

If I'm honest, before Switzerland was in Schengen, I never showed my passport at the border either. I would only show it when flying.
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Old 31.10.2014, 15:57
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

ID checks in the police database s absolutely normal here. I was stopped 2 times in the past 10 years for random ID checks by undercover polizei.
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Old 31.10.2014, 17:08
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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ID checks in the police database s absolutely normal here. I was stopped 2 times in the past 10 years for random ID checks by undercover polizei.
Would that be local, Kanton or federal police? I heard the local police don't share information across across Kantons in respect of privacy laws.
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Old 31.10.2014, 17:26
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

I am sure they have a common database like the US NCIC (National Crime Information Center). Thats how they know if someone is wanted in Switzerland, EU or International...

SOURCES OF DATA: Data contained in NCIC is provided by the FBI, federal, state, local and foreign criminal justice agencies, and authorized courts.

The purpose for maintaining the NCIC system is to provide a computerized database for ready access by a criminal justice agency making an inquiry and for prompt disclosure of information in the system from other criminal justice agencies about crimes and criminals. This information assists authorized agencies in criminal justice and related law enforcement objectives, such as apprehending fugitives, locating missing persons, locating and returning stolen property, as well as in the protection of the law enforcement officers encountering the individuals described in the system.

Categories of individuals covered by the system:


A. Wanted Persons: 1. Individuals for whom Federal warrants are
outstanding.
2. Individuals who have committed or have been identified with an
offense which is classified as a felony or serious misdemeanor under
the existing penal statutes of the jurisdiction originating the entry
and for whom a felony or misdemeanor warrant has been issued with
respect to the offense which was the basis of the entry. Probation and
parole violators meeting the foregoing criteria.
3. A "Temporary Felony Want" may be entered when a law enforcement
agency has need to take prompt action to establish a "want" entry
for the apprehension of a person who has committed or the officer has
reasonable grounds to believe has committed, a felony and who may seek
refuge by fleeing across jurisdictional boundaries and circumstances
preclude the immediate procurement of a felony warrant. A "Temporary
Felony Want" shall be specifically identified as such and subject to
verification and support by a proper warrant within 48 hours following
the entry of a temporary want. The agency originating the "Temporary
Felony Want" shall be responsible for subsequent verification or re-
entry of a permanent want.
4. Juveniles who have been adjudicated delinquent and who have escaped
or absconded from custody, even though no arrest warrants were issued.
Juveniles who have been charged with the commission of a delinquent
act that would be a crime if committed by an adult, and who have fled
from the state where the act was committed.
5. Individuals who have committed or have been identified with an
offense committed in a foreign country, which would be a felony if
committed in the United States, and for whom a warrant of arrest is
outstanding and for which act an extradition treaty exists between the
United States and that country.
6. Individuals who have committed or have been identified with an
offense committed in Canada and for whom a Canada-Wide Warrant has
been issued which meets the requirements of the Canada-U.S.
Extradition Treaty, 18 U.S.C. 3184.
B. Individuals who have been charged with serious and/or significant
offenses:
1. Individuals who have been fingerprinted and whose criminal history
record information has been obtained.
2. Violent Felons: Persons with three or more convictions for a
violent felony or serious drug offense as defined by 18 U.S.C.
Sec. 924(e).
C. Missing Persons: 1. A person of any age who is missing and who is
under proven physical/mental disability or is senile, thereby
subjecting that person or others to personal and immediate danger.
2. A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating
that the disappearance was not voluntary.
3. A person of any age who is missing under circumstances indicating
that that person's physical safety may be in danger.
4. A person of any age who is missing after a catastrophe.
5. A person who is missing and declared unemancipated as defined by
the laws of the person's state of residence and does not meet any of
the entry criteria set forth in 1-4 above.
D. Individuals designated by the U.S. Secret Service as posing a
potential danger to the President and/or other authorized protectees.
E. Members of Violent Criminal Gangs: Individuals about whom
investigation has developed sufficient information to establish
membership in a particular violent criminal gang by either:
1. Self admission at the time of arrest or incarceration, or
2. Any two of the following criteria:
a. Identified as a gang member by a reliable informant;
b. Identified as a gang member by an informant whose information has
been corroborated;
c. Frequents a gang's area, associates with known members, and/or
affects gang dress, tattoos, or hand signals;
d. Has been arrested multiple times with known gang members for
offenses consistent with gang activity; or
e. Self admission (other than at the time of arrest or incarceration).
F. Members of Terrorist Organizations: Individuals about whom
investigations has developed sufficient information to establish
membership in a particular terrorist organization using the same
criteria listed above in paragraph E, items 1 and 2 a-e, as they apply
to members of terrorist organizations rather than members of violent
criminal gangs.
G. Unidentified Persons: 1. Any unidentified deceased person. 2. Any
person who is living and unable to ascertain the person's identity
(e.g., infant, amnesia victim). 3. Any unidentified catastrophe
victim. 4. Body parts when a body has been dismembered.

Categories of records in the system:


A. Stolen Vehicle File: 1. Stolen vehicles. 2. Vehicles wanted in
conjunction with felonies or serious misdemeanors. 3. Stolen vehicle
parts including certificates of origin or title.
B. Stolen License Plate File.
C. Stolen Boat File.
D. Stolen Gun File: 1. Stolen guns. 2. Recovered guns, when ownership
of which has not been established.
E. Stolen Article File.
F. Securities File: 1. Serially numbered stolen, embezzled or
counterfeited, securities.
2. "Securities" for present purposes of this file are currently
(e.g., bills, bank notes) and those documents or certificates which
generally are considered to be evidence of debt (e.g., bonds,
debentures, notes) or ownership of property (e.g., common stock,
preferred stock), and documents which represent subscription rights,
warrants and which are of the types traded in the securities exchanges
in the United States, except for commodities futures. Also, included
are warehouse receipts, travelers checks and money orders.
G. Wanted Person File: Described in "CATEGORIES OF INDIVIDUALS
COVERED BY THE SYSTEM. A. Wanted Persons, 1-4."
H. Foreign Fugitive File: Identification data regarding persons who
are fugitives from foreign countries, who are described in
"
Categories of individuals covered by the system: A. Wanted Persons,
5 and 6."
I. Interstate Identification Index File: A cooperative Federal-state
program for the interstate exchange of criminal history record
information for the purpose of facilitating the interstate exchange of
such information among criminal justice agencies. Described in
"

Categories of individuals covered by the system: B. 1."
J. Identification records regarding persons enrolled in the United
States Marshals Service Witness Security Program who have been charged
with serious and/or significant offenses: Described in "CATEGORIES OF
INDIVIDUALS covered by the system: B."
K. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) Violent Felon File:
Described in "

Categories of individuals covered by the system: B.
2."
L. Missing Person File: Described in "CATEGORIES OF INDIVIDUALS
covered by the system: C. Missing Persons."
M. U.S. Secret Service Protective File: Described in "CATEGORIES OF
INDIVIDUALS covered by the system: D."
N. Violent Criminal Gang File: A cooperative Federal-state program for
the interstate exchange of criminal gang information. For the purpose
of this file, a "gang" is defined as a group of three or more
persons with a common interest, bond, or activity characterized by
criminal or delinquent conduct. Described in "CATEGORIES OF
INDIVIDUALS covered by the system: E. Members of Violent Criminal
Gangs."
O. Terrorist File: A cooperative Federal-state program for the
exchange of information about terrorist organizations and individuals.
For the purposes of this file, "terrorism" is defined as activities
that involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a
violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state or
would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of
the United States or any state, which appear to be intended to:
1. Intimidate or coerce a civilian population,
2. Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion,
or
3. Affect the conduct of a government by crimes or kidnapping.
Described in "

Categories of individuals covered by the system: F.
Members of Terrorist Organizations."
P. Unidentified Person File: Described in "CATEGORIES OF INDIVIDUALS
covered by the system: G. Unidentified Persons."



Authority for maintenance of the system: The system is established and maintained in accordance with 28 U.S.C. 534; Department of Justice Appropriation Act, 1973, Pub. L. 92-544, 86 Stat. 1115, Securities Acts Amendment of 1975, Pub. L. 94-29, 89 Stat. 97; and 18 U.S.C. Sec. 924 (e). Exec. Order No. 10450, 3 CFR (1974).
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  #99  
Old 31.10.2014, 18:09
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

^^^^Why link when you can copy and paste?
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Old 31.10.2014, 18:28
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Re: Swiss Border Controls

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Border controls are not allowed in Schengen, and ID checks in border areas are regulated by Article 21 of the Schengen borders code:
....
However authorities have police powers and they can single people for vehicle inspections and id check.
And customs checks. Those were not abolished for Switzerland.
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