Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 23.10.2014, 15:57
Ttt Ttt is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 19 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Ttt has annoyed a few people around hereTtt has annoyed a few people around here
Swiss Border Controls

It has been reported that Swiss Customs officials are asking to see the passports of all passengers on trains from Italy. I understand this action by the Swiss customs or border authorities to be a breach the Schengen Agreement and the domestic law implementing it. Many people were subject to a passport or immigration check (not merely a check to see if you are importing goods and paying appropriate dutes, which they are entitled to do). Neither a police officer or a customs officer has the legal right to force a person to pay a ticket under threat of detention. By making this threat the customs officer abused her/his power.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Ttt for this useful post:
The following 10 users groan at Ttt for this post:
  #2  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:05
grumpygrapefruit's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mostly Zurich
Posts: 5,128
Groaned at 30 Times in 29 Posts
Thanked 12,630 Times in 3,246 Posts
grumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond reputegrumpygrapefruit has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
It has been reported that Swiss Customs officials are asking to see the passports of all passengers on trains from Italy. I understand this action by the Swiss customs or border authorities to be a breach the Schengen Agreement and the domestic law implementing it. Many people were subject to a passport or immigration check (not merely a check to see if you are importing goods and paying appropriate dutes, which they are entitled to do). Neither a police officer or a customs officer has the legal right to force a person to pay a ticket under threat of detention. By making this threat the customs officer abused her/his power.
Where?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank grumpygrapefruit for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:06
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,790
Groaned at 400 Times in 298 Posts
Thanked 22,754 Times in 10,280 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Link please? Local customs officers, or rather those who are Border Police, here regularly board the train in Pontarlier and check passengers' papers. I am not sure if they are allowed to systematically check everybody- but they are allowed, as far as I understand, and will check with them, anyone they suspect of not being from the EU. As many immigrants from non EU countries, come here via France or italy- they have a right to check, I believe.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #4  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:17
Ace1's Avatar
A singular modality
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Engelberg & near Basel
Posts: 5,930
Groaned at 171 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 9,019 Times in 4,030 Posts
Ace1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond reputeAce1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
It has been reported that Swiss Customs officials are asking to see the passports of all passengers on trains from Italy. I understand this action by the Swiss customs or border authorities to be a breach the Schengen Agreement
Why? That simply says that you don't need a passport to cross borders, but doesn't stop officials from asking for it if you have one, or some other acceptable form of ID if you don't.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Ace1 for this useful post:
  #5  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:18
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,489
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,853 Times in 3,536 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...345/index.html
http://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifie...083/index.html
http://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifie...319/index.html
http://europa.eu/legislation_summari.../l14514_en.htm
http://www.solothurnerzeitung.ch/sol...cher-127425385

No, does link are not here to support OPs view.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:22
Ttt Ttt is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 19 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Ttt has annoyed a few people around hereTtt has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Swiss Border Controls

The Schengen Accords and the Swiss implementing legislation state that only customs inspections may be undertaken, not passport control. Border guards don't have the right to enforce traffic tickets. They cannot even enforce fines, although they could refer someone to a court which, if it provides due process, could enforce a fine.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at Ttt for this post:
  #7  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:26
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,143
Groaned at 349 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 18,316 Times in 6,969 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

What "traffic ticket" are you jibbering on about?
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #8  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:37
princessduck's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 890
Groaned at 52 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 488 Times in 264 Posts
princessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputation
Re: Swiss Border Controls

I thought it is normal to check passports once in a while...don't know what ticket you are talking about...do we need another special ticket to travel...one is not enough...?
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank princessduck for this useful post:
  #9  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:39
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 5,489
Groaned at 40 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 7,853 Times in 3,536 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

You need a ticket, it's the law.
You need to pay surcharge if you have no ticket, it's the law.
If you do not pay the surcharge you have to leave the train, it's the law.
If you have no valid ticket you have to show your ID, it's the law.
If the police knows somebody breaks the law, they can check ID, it's the law.
You need to follow police procedures, it's the law.
Not following all of the above is a misdemeanour.
The police MUST arrest a person which just committed a misdemeanor, it's the law.
__________________
Discover the beauty of Switzerland and its many wonderful passes with your motorbike - http://motofun.ch/paessefahren.html
Reply With Quote
The following 9 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:42
princessduck's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 890
Groaned at 52 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 488 Times in 264 Posts
princessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputation
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
You need a ticket, it's the law.
You need to pay surcharge if you have no ticket, it's the law.
If you do not pay the surcharge you have to leave the train, it's the law.
If you have no valid ticket you have to show your ID, it's the law.
If the police knows somebody breaks the law, they can check ID, it's the law.
You need to follow police procedures, it's the law.
Not following all of the above is a misdemeanour.
The police MUST arrest a person which just committed a misdemeanor, it's the law.
I don't know about others, but I would not travel between countries without a valid train or bus ticket and without valid papers like passport or ID or permit. So don't know why the big deal that border control wants to check papers.
I might be missing something...?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank princessduck for this useful post:
  #11  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:42
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Zurich Unterland
Posts: 3,318
Groaned at 145 Times in 99 Posts
Thanked 4,850 Times in 1,930 Posts
smoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond reputesmoky has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

If border controls are not allowed to check passports then why am I advised to carry my passport with me AND my Swiss visa? If no-one is allowed to check them?

I once drove into Germany with an expired Schengen visa (in the old days) and got fined 100 Euros at the border post - because the man stopped me and asked for identification.

You sound like you are not in favour of control of illegal immigrants working their way up from Italy after their boat trip?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:44
princessduck's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 890
Groaned at 52 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 488 Times in 264 Posts
princessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputation
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
Neither a police officer or a customs officer has the legal right to force a person to pay a ticket under threat of detention. By making this threat the customs officer abused her/his power.

If you do not have a ticket you have to pay, if you do not pay, they ask you for ID to send the bill at home. I never heard about threats!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank princessduck for this useful post:
  #13  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:47
prof. taratonga's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Zürich & Bignasco
Posts: 2,308
Groaned at 28 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 4,536 Times in 1,437 Posts
prof. taratonga has a reputation beyond reputeprof. taratonga has a reputation beyond reputeprof. taratonga has a reputation beyond reputeprof. taratonga has a reputation beyond reputeprof. taratonga has a reputation beyond reputeprof. taratonga has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

What happened after you explained them the legal situation and refused to show them any identification?
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank prof. taratonga for this useful post:
  #14  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:48
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,930
Groaned at 963 Times in 751 Posts
Thanked 21,045 Times in 10,049 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
Border guards don't have the right to enforce traffic tickets.
Swiss border guards, unlike Italian border guards, are also police, and Swiss police have the right and duty to enforce all Swiss laws, and have the right to ask for ID at any time, for any reason.

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:52
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,790
Groaned at 400 Times in 298 Posts
Thanked 22,754 Times in 10,280 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Yes, just checked with someone who knows. They are not Customs officers on the trains, but Border Guards, who have even more powers than normal State Police. They do not need to justify their decision to check.

Could you try and be a bit clearer though, I realise you are Italian and English is not your language. Do you mean to say that you didn't have a valid train ticket- and the Border Guard asked for your ticket and then forced you to buy one? They could have asked you to leave the train or send you back to italy if the border was crossed already.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #16  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:54
Ttt Ttt is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 13
Groaned at 19 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Ttt has annoyed a few people around hereTtt has annoyed a few people around here
Re: Swiss Border Controls

You assume I had not the ticket.. Plus, it is not not the point I am rematking:

The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
First, that Swiss customs officials do not have the right to carry out passport controls. According to the Schengen Accords these are to be carried out at the first point of entry into 'Schengenland' by immigration officials. Of course, customs officials can ask for identification if they have grounds to suspect someone of committing a crime against the customs laws.

Swiss customs officials have no right to enforce fines. They can levy fines but only courts can enforce the fines after providing due process.
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users groan at Ttt for this post:
  #17  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:56
adrianlondon's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 8,930
Groaned at 190 Times in 173 Posts
Thanked 24,760 Times in 6,644 Posts
adrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond reputeadrianlondon has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Yeah, this does sound like a "I did something wrong, got caught and now want to blame someone" type thread.

Luckily, they do tend to get godwinned pretty quickly. Let's see
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank adrianlondon for this useful post:
  #18  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:57
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 18,930
Groaned at 963 Times in 751 Posts
Thanked 21,045 Times in 10,049 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
As has been pointed out, they are NOT simply customs officials, they are also POLICE, and police in Switzerland can ask anyone anywher for ID at any time for any reason (or not).

Got it now?

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 7 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
  #19  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:58
dodgyken's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Democratic Republic Kenistan
Posts: 10,143
Groaned at 349 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 18,316 Times in 6,969 Posts
dodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond reputedodgyken has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Swiss Border Controls

Quote:
View Post
You assume I had not the ticket.. Plus, it is not not the point I am rematking:

The law is clear: Swiss customs officials they do not have the right.
First, that Swiss customs officials do not have the right to carry out passport controls. According to the Schengen Accords these are to be carried out at the first point of entry into 'Schengenland' by immigration officials. Of course, customs officials can ask for identification if they have grounds to suspect someone of committing a crime against the customs laws.

Swiss customs officials have no right to enforce fines. They can levy fines but only courts can enforce the fines after providing due process.
From what you have posted so far, the point you are making is:

My forum name is Ttt, and I'm a complete twonk.
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank dodgyken for this useful post:
  #20  
Old 23.10.2014, 16:58
princessduck's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 890
Groaned at 52 Times in 35 Posts
Thanked 488 Times in 264 Posts
princessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputationprincessduck has an excellent reputation
Re: Swiss Border Controls

OP- so...you got caught without a ticket and you don't want to pay the fine or what? If someone threatened you then you have to make a complaint and prove it.... As you seem to accentuate the threat issue. Just pay the fine!

Last edited by princessduck; 23.10.2014 at 17:13.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank princessduck for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dentist close to Swiss border MacGregor's Daughter Family matters/health 19 10.08.2015 19:51
Advice on border controls please! NSchulzi Transportation/driving 0 15.08.2009 16:54
Self-removals and border controls [most information applicable in both directions] Jazz Transportation/driving 21 10.06.2008 18:03
Swiss-French border controls ksareen Introductions 0 24.10.2007 18:05
Swiss border crossing/manning Colonelboris Travel/day trips/free time 21 23.05.2007 18:30


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 18:15.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0