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  #181  
Old 17.01.2015, 13:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

A big difference imho, between 'apologising' (why should Muslims apologise???) - and saying 'not in my name- this is not what Islam (whatever religion here depending on situation) is about and I want to affirm this clearly'.

Last edited by Odile; 17.01.2015 at 16:26.
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  #182  
Old 17.01.2015, 13:59
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

One of the things I would really like to see, as much as the separation of state and religion, is the separation of religion and politics. Religion really needs to be depoliticized. Some religions are given religious status, yet have an ingrained political aspect to it. That cannot fit in an open democracy. You cannot have a political party that is so sacred that you cannot question it.

This needs to be called out.
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  #183  
Old 17.01.2015, 14:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...Muslims apologise???) ..
For the same reason Christians apologise - for actions done not in their name, or for actions done in their name that they disagree with, or actions carried out by the representatives of their religion that are wrong.

"Not in my name" is a good start, but I don't think it addresses the issue of responsibilty. These extremists arose in moderate Islamic communities. Those communities are of course not solely responsible, but they must bear some of the responsibility. So when a Muslim apologises, he or she is recognising that his or her community, and in some ways, his or her religion has failed. Without that what I hear is "Nothing to do with me". (And I feel the same about Christians who disclaim responsibility in the same way).
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  #184  
Old 17.01.2015, 14:05
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There is nothing wrong with prosperity and wealth. Its the natural outcome of living intelligently, morally and correctly.
Absolutely. As for the second sentence - no, it ain't. It's not a "natural" outcome. Plenty of intelligent, moral and correct people are very poor. If we want to talk about economics, politics and social policies that's an entire different thing.
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I don't think there is anything wrong with displays of grandeur of cathedrals and architecture. It is a form of worship, and it does propel human achievements forward. What is wrong is if the prosperity and wealth is the objective in itself, in lieu of living morally. Greed.
Debatable. I used to think that too till my ex-Catholic Swiss friend was very surprised that I spent more than 2 hours in Einsiedeln Abbey and shared my enthusiasm. (she had a walk in the meantime) That made me think more of this matter and came to the conclusions she's was not entirely wrong.
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In regards to separation of church and state, in theory, church and state should be able to integrate well. Cities like Geneva and Zuerich were city-states built and governed through theological concepts. Small villages were religious communities. Religion can provide the social cohesion a community needs to tackle great threats and obstacles. But as we know, humans are subject to corruption. Where it all really goes awry is when religion is hijacked for conquest. The misapplication of religion occurs in political conquest as well as in social conquests.
Well, in a secular state they do in many regards (justice for instance), but I am against to them being financed by the state. From compulsory taxes.
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  #185  
Old 17.01.2015, 16:10
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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For the same reason Christians apologise - for actions done not in their name, or for actions done in their name that they disagree with, or actions carried out by the representatives of their religion that are wrong.

"Not in my name" is a good start, but I don't think it addresses the issue of responsibilty. These extremists arose in moderate Islamic communities. Those communities are of course not solely responsible, but they must bear some of the responsibility. So when a Muslim apologises, he or she is recognising that his or her community, and in some ways, his or her religion has failed. Without that what I hear is "Nothing to do with me". (And I feel the same about Christians who disclaim responsibility in the same way).
Insincere apologies can be counter productive. I certainly hate apologies that are not truly meant. Its fair to say that the vast majority of Muslims do not perpetrate atrocities, and therefore feel no particular guilt for them. But the impact directly affects them nonetheless. In some ways, they feel a need to be apologized to, and feel victimized by this. Strange, but that is what I perceive. As for solutions around ongoing issues, this disassociation and resignation does not help them either. They have an opportunity here to address this in ways Western military actions cannot. They can proactively address this with a better alternative narrative. If and when they do, they could deserve and receive plenty of gratitude from the whole world, instead of misplaced scorn.

Instead of apologies, I think they need apologetics. They need to clearly articulate and demonstrate these concepts of peace they incessantly claim. Not for the purpose of proselytizing to naive and ignorant non-Muslims, but for evangelizing and teaching it to the Muslims who apparently don't see it the same way.

Last edited by Phos; 17.01.2015 at 16:34.
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  #186  
Old 17.01.2015, 16:31
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Debatable. I used to think that too till my ex-Catholic Swiss friend was very surprised that I spent more than 2 hours in Einsiedeln Abbey and shared my enthusiasm. (she had a walk in the meantime) That made me think more of this matter and came to the conclusions she's was not entirely wrong.
I find the Sagrada Famiglia in Barcelona a great accomplishment, and a beautiful expression of worship. It was privately funded. I find the Duomo in Florence amazing yet abonimable, considering they raised funds for it by selling indulgences. I believe some of those indulgences were used for atrocious acts. The Great Pyramids are also an amazing feat, which likely had religious intentions.

And then you look at the Great Wall of China. That was more ethnicity motivated, and less religion. So I believe these same things occur whether it is by religion or not. I'm not truly convinced religion is the great corrupter in itself. Political ideology can be used in place of religion as well. And sometimes I wonder if human beings are truly smart and intelligent enough to live truly egalitarian. Evidence suggests some are not, and need to be held with a very tight leash.
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  #187  
Old 17.01.2015, 19:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

kind of related to the topic, and a very articulate response to the criticism of Islam overall:

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  #188  
Old 17.01.2015, 19:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I wouldn't mind Islamic communities being recognized by the state if it can be accredited as being non-violent, is transparent, tracks its members and can be held accountable for the actions taken by its members.
Stereotypes much?
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  #189  
Old 17.01.2015, 20:22
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I apologize if this isn't directly on topic, but...

Earlier today, people were handing out free copies of the Qur'an on Zurich's Bahnhofstrasse.

The "funny" thing is, just the other day I was wishing I had a copy (as it seemed strange to me to debate about a book I had never actually read in its entirety).

They didn't seem to really be pushing them onto people; they were just kind of standing there with a mound of books. I almost missed them, as I was rushing by, but I happened to make eye contact with one of them, so I smiled and he smiled back. He then held up a copy in a gesture to ask if I would like one. He was even kind enough to then guide me in the direction of one of his mates who had copies in English.

Anyways, I struck up a bit of a conversation with these guys and ended up asking them what they thought of the Charlie Hebdo tragedy (perhaps that seems like a foolish question, but sadly, it was the first opportunity I had to directly speak with a Muslim about it). They basically said that they didn't really like the magazine but certainly didn't feel that anyone should have died because of it. Overall, I sensed that they were very friendly and warm -- and very welcoming to my questions. I left by wishing them "peace" and they wished the same for me.
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  #190  
Old 17.01.2015, 22:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I am often reminded of the previous height of Islamic culture. What do you think happened since then? What do you think is happening now?
I am not sure anyone can answer this. There are probably multiple reasons behind. And I guess reasoning would be very long, multi-dimensional and not in the scope of this forum. Shortly, I think things went hand-in-hand: political power, military power, general well-being, science, theology, etc. What was first: egg or chicken?

From political perspective things got wrong very early anyways. But there is a verse saying that rulers are as people are, so if someone would look from an Islamic point of view, the answer lies in people's conduct and values.

Mongolian invasions did lots of damage in 13th century. Baghdad was destroyed with its huge library and almost everybody was murdered, including many knowledgeable people in various matters, including science, medicine, theology, governance, etc.

But simultaneously/shortly before there were big things going on in the field of theology and philosophy. Some praise Gazahli and say his Ihya Ulmuddin is the best work of Islamic theology. Some say his argumentation against various schools of thought killed off the theological debate. Significant scientific contributions continued well into 15th century. Last successful Muslim dynasty were Ottomans. They did not make many significant scientific contributions. They were good in war, some technology and had architectural masterpieces, but did not really excel in science.

Many changes happened on sociological plan as well. Once heard that divorce rate in 15th or 16th century Cairo were around 40%. Obviously it was a very different place back then, for good or bad.

Gold from Americas most likely started off the scientific revolution in Europe. So money is important for such things. But we cannot ignore all the palate of simultaneous things going on. Europe's military success brought Muslim military failures and the entire chain.

Right now many Muslim majority countries are poor, were colonies and are struggling with problems left from those periods. Did you know that many African countries still pay tax to France for "benefits of colonialism"? If a nation cannot afford even books to schoolchildren, you cannot expect science to flourish. You cannot expect human rights to flourish. You cannot expect anything to flourish.


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And maybe more of a direct question, you don't need to answer this, but why have you chosen to live in a non-Islamic country like Switzerland instead of existing Islamic country where they have Sharia?
Switzerland happens to have some good educational institutions and it is my fourth country so far. Sharia law is not well-defined and cannot be in my opinion. Even those claiming to have sharia law, and their number is very small, have laws that are in direct contradiction with Quran.
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  #191  
Old 17.01.2015, 22:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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kind of related to the topic, and a very articulate response to the criticism of Islam overall:

Excellent thanks- I do hope many will take time to watch/listen.
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  #192  
Old 17.01.2015, 22:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Unfortunately, religion was only a part of society. Most of those places were left behind the West in many regards. The Ottoman Empire gave the privilege of keeping their faith to Christians who were part of the Byzantine Empire, prior to Ottoman conquest, true. But they did it to keep them somehow not rebelling too much. Don't mix up tolerance and politics. Besides non-Muslims also enjoyed the "privilege" to pay higher taxes...anyway, of course there were periods of this empire which were considered "illuminist", which could be said of every empire. None of them were fair to everyone.
I don't think rebellion argument holds on as both your example of Anatolia and Egypt were under Muslim rule for a very long period (Egypt almost 14 centuries...). And in the end some of those groups did rebel, so if preventing them was the goal, definitely not good played out.

Higher tax but no military service obligation which made many Christians rich during wars in Ottoman Empire for example... So it was not a clear situation who benefits
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  #193  
Old 17.01.2015, 23:21
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I don't think rebellion argument holds on as both your example of Anatolia and Egypt were under Muslim rule for a very long period (Egypt almost 14 centuries...). And in the end some of those groups did rebel, so if preventing them was the goal, definitely not good played out.

Higher tax but no military service obligation which made many Christians rich during wars in Ottoman Empire for example... So it was not a clear situation who benefits
I wasn't specifically referring to Anatolia and Egypt, in fact I didn't even mention them. It was more of a general discussion and it seems our views differ.

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  #194  
Old 17.01.2015, 23:49
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I find the Sagrada Famiglia in Barcelona a great accomplishment, and a beautiful expression of worship. It was privately funded. I find the Duomo in Florence amazing yet abonimable, considering they raised funds for it by selling indulgences. I believe some of those indulgences were used for atrocious acts. The Great Pyramids are also an amazing feat, which likely had religious intentions.

And then you look at the Great Wall of China. That was more ethnicity motivated, and less religion. So I believe these same things occur whether it is by religion or not. I'm not truly convinced religion is the great corrupter in itself. Political ideology can be used in place of religion as well. And sometimes I wonder if human beings are truly smart and intelligent enough to live truly egalitarian. Evidence suggests some are not, and need to be held with a very tight leash.
Those are beautiful things, after all it's not important who financed them. At the time some of them were built, the church was probably the only one not only able, but also inclined to do so. I am grateful they exist and I don't contest the historical role of different churches. Nevertheless, when we talk about taxes nowadays, the context is different. Of course, we all have to "give Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and let the state decide what's best.
There are many NGO's and charities to be supported though, so there are solutions for every problem (as far as I'm concerned).
I don't know what to say about living truly egalitarian, are you talking about all people having equal rights and obligations? (I better ask before making assumptions) If it's not that, of course we can't be equally rich or equally poor, in fact I quite enjoy my family's material comfort and don't feel guilty there are people out there extremely poor because it's not my fault. I'd rather help them as little as I can, that's all.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.01.2015 at 01:00.
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  #195  
Old 18.01.2015, 01:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I don't think tax money should be going to religious institutions. But it does not mean they should not be state recognized. I don't say they should be or not be, but having more organized things, having days off for religious holidays, understanding for dietary requirements, and similar stuff could be achieved via official recognition. In my opinion religious institutions should be financed by adherents of that particular religion. I don't see why, for example, an atheist person should be paying for a church or mosque or anything of that sort. Same as I don't understand why I am paying for Billag when I don't use their services
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  #196  
Old 18.01.2015, 15:33
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Switzerland happens to have some good educational institutions and it is my fourth country so far. Sharia law is not well-defined and cannot be in my opinion. Even those claiming to have sharia law, and their number is very small, have laws that are in direct contradiction with Quran.
Muslims in communities in the West advocate for Sharia in their communities. Some of these communities are left alone. In some places, police, firemen and non-Muslims don't go there. The French just look the other way. The British are paralyzed by political correctness, historical guilt, or for some, a sense of multicultural fairness. But given there does not seem to be a standard of Sharia, do you think it is a good idea for these sub- cultures to continue on like this?

The advocacy of Sharia in the West seem to come from non-violent extremists. But more and more Muslims are voicing opposition to the idea. Where is Sharia practiced correctly anyway? Saudi Arabia?
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Old 18.01.2015, 15:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Muslims in communities in the West advocate for Sharia in their communities. Some of these communities are left alone. In some places, police, firemen and non-Muslims don't go there. The French just look the other way. The British are paralyzed by political correctness, historical guilt, or for some, a sense of multicultural fairness. But given there does not seem to be a standard of Sharia, do you think it is a good idea for these sub- cultures to continue on like this?

The advocacy of Sharia in the West seem to come from non-violent extremists. But more and more Muslims are voicing opposition to the idea. Where is Sharia practiced correctly anyway? Saudi Arabia?
It's important to note that as there is not one Islam, there is not one Sharia either. There are 5 schools of fiqh but even then these are relatively broad guidelines or frameworks and an individual judge may issue any fatwa on anything he likes.
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Old 18.01.2015, 21:39
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Muslims in communities in the West advocate for Sharia in their communities. Some of these communities are left alone. In some places, police, firemen and non-Muslims don't go there. The French just look the other way. The British are paralyzed by political correctness, historical guilt, or for some, a sense of multicultural fairness.
Can you give some specifics please. Can you list some of these non-Muslims-banned areas which you so confidently speak of?

PS. I hope you're not going to say Birmingham!
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Old 18.01.2015, 22:28
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Can you give some specifics please. Can you list some of these non-Muslims-banned areas which you so confidently speak of?

PS. I hope you're not going to say Birmingham!
There are about 750 neighborhoods identified by French police called Zones Urbaines Sensitive:
http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/

There are about 40 in Holland, some forming in Germany. They typically have Sharia neighborhood watches.

I can imagine some of these are communities neglected by public services. Ghettos. And these are community attempts to maintain some social order. At the same time, these are susceptible to extremists, whether non-violent or violent. I just question who provides oversight to what takes place there, and whether parallel sub-cultures in a country are conducive to integration and peace, or ultimately creates division and strife.
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Old 18.01.2015, 22:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Oh but is is.

Just done a quick google autofill check:
Christians apologises for the Crusades
Pope apologises for the Crusades, abuse, inquisition
Church apologises for to Darwin, for inqusisition

For Islam I got: Imam apologised to ISIS - couldn't find any others.

Of course, there are some Muslims who do apologise. E.g. #muslimapologies







-- the Crusades were authorized by the Pope (before the Reformation)
-- the Pope NOW apologizes --- some Muslim leaders may apologize in about 2400 AD
-- the Catholic church apologizes for having done injustice to Darwin ? when exactly ?
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