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Old 18.01.2015, 22:53
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I find the Sagrada Famiglia in Barcelona a great accomplishment, and a beautiful expression of worship. It was privately funded. I find the Duomo in Florence amazing yet abonimable, considering they raised funds for it by selling indulgences. I believe some of those indulgences were used for atrocious acts. The Great Pyramids are also an amazing feat, which likely had religious intentions.

And then you look at the Great Wall of China. That was more ethnicity motivated, and less religion. So I believe these same things occur whether it is by religion or not. I'm not truly convinced religion is the great corrupter in itself. Political ideology can be used in place of religion as well. And sometimes I wonder if human beings are truly smart and intelligent enough to live truly egalitarian. Evidence suggests some are not, and need to be held with a very tight leash.

While the Duomo in Firenze is great, the Sagrada Thing in Barcelona is KITSCH
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  #202  
Old 18.01.2015, 23:15
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...I can imagine some of these are communities neglected by public services. Ghettos. And these are community attempts to maintain some social order. At the same time, these are susceptible to extremists, whether non-violent or violent. I just question who provides oversight to what takes place there, and whether parallel sub-cultures in a country are conducive to integration and peace, or ultimately creates division and strife.

I do think that people are often too quick to negatively judge that which they don't really understand or that which is different from themselves. I apologize if this is a stupid analogy, but I grew up in a city in the US in which the "blacks" and "whites" are very segregated, and racism is certainly very rampant there. I even know a lot of white people there who have never even had an actual conversation with a "black person" and yet have, for whatever reason, developed a lot of resentment toward their "race" in general. So I think that people do often form their beliefs, regarding other races and cultures, not due to direct experience but by the media and other non-objective sources. For this reason, I think there is a dire need for more actual direct communication between Muslims and non-Muslims, as it's difficult for me to imagine that there could ever be peace or understanding otherwise.

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-- the Crusades were authorized by the Pope (before the Reformation)
-- the Pope NOW apologizes --- some Muslim leaders may apologize in about 2400 AD
-- the Catholic church apologizes for having done injustice to Darwin ? when exactly ?
Speaking of Catholicism, I accidentally stumbled upon this article earlier, posted on catholic.com*:

Endless Jihad: The Truth about Islam and Violence

http://www.catholic.com/documents/en...m-and-violence

No wonder this "Islamophobia" thing is so rapidly taking hold in the West, when people are basing their opinions on this kind of crap. (The hypocrisy is mind-blowing).

I just wish more people would think for themselves rather than simply adopting the mentality of (what they perceive as) the majority.

*Why did I even bother to look? I should have known...
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  #203  
Old 18.01.2015, 23:31
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I have so many favourite cathedrals, and all in the UK- Lincoln, Ely and its amazing lantern, York, Canterbury- and the stunning Norman simplicity of Durham, my favourite, and so many more. And also the lovely and smallest of all, also pure Norman, Southwell.

But they were built with sweat, death and pain, with money that were kept from feeding and caring for the people. Most of the builders and stone masons were not religious- and I always wink at my favourite figure, the Lincoln Imp- a little devil carved in the stone, right up there above the nave and altar, by a heathen stonemason sick of being paid a pittance for his talents.

Of course the Church also played a terrible and cruel rôle in the Enclosures and clearances.
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  #204  
Old 19.01.2015, 01:16
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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But they were built with sweat, death and pain, with money that were kept from feeding and caring for the people. Most of the builders and stone masons were not religious- and I always wink at my favourite figure, the Lincoln Imp- a little devil carved in the stone, right up there above the nave and altar, by a heathen stonemason sick of being paid a pittance for his talents.
.
Same could be said about many things. Certainly Hagia Sophia is not an exception, good that at least it wasn't destroyed.. Or monuments from antiquity - I can't even imagine the pain and sweat put in there...but this is what it was, this is how the world used to function.
The Catholic Church apologised and admitted their mistakes; their good work throughout the globe is amazing and I think we should stop looking only in the past because it wouldn't be fair. Anyway, the system here is so correct that you have the option of not paying church taxes, if you choose so. (don't know exactly if this is valid for every canton though) Switzerland is a Christian country and don't think that should be a problem for the immigrants, we are not here to change things that are proven to be working and made this country what it is now. We chose to live here precisely because of what it is.
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  #205  
Old 19.01.2015, 01:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...erden-21918085

More and more Muslims in Switzerland would like to see their church recognised as a State Church by the Swiss government.

Advantages:
- taxes
- more state control over religious education

Disadvantages:
- Culture and identity shock for Christianity-based Switzerland
- Possibility of feeling threatened by the Muslim church

America has tried to separate the state from religion but religion still plays an important role in their politics.

Switzerland has never tried to separate the state from religion. However, the Swiss still consider themselves Christian-based, even though the church has little meaning in their lives.

It's an interesting and very emotional concept.

20 Minutes addressed this today in the above mentioned link. There were voices for much for such a discussion but others found it to be the wrong time to address such an issue.

My opinion: I honestly don't know.

Religion is about peace and love. Extremists are about egos and power. In 1291, Switzerland fought to become independent from the Hapsburgs and from any other dominant reigning government. For centuries, the idea of Catholics and Protestants living in peace together in Switzerland was marred by battles and tabus. Today, the tabus have been lifted and there is peace. The dominant role of the church has been weakened in every canton through a high standard of living and education.

Entering a new religion into the state recognised list would result in a huge emotional backlash of wrath fueled by fright and lack of knowledge. Would it be worth going down that road at the present time? Again, I don't know.

Looking forward to your opinions.
Meanwhile the green wants to be recognized as a color.
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  #206  
Old 19.01.2015, 02:36
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No wonder this "Islamophobia" thing is so rapidly taking hold in the West, when people are basing their opinions on this kind of crap. (The hypocrisy is mind-blowing).

I just wish more people would think for themselves rather than simply adopting the mentality of (what they perceive as) the majority.

*Why did I even bother to look? I should have known...
I am not easily swayed by opinions and sentiment, and can very well apply critical thinking to what is said and written. What carries more weight for me and others are actual events that take place around the world. The media crap are merely opinions or attempts to explain the situation. The actual violence speak for themselves with or without sentimental opinions.
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  #207  
Old 19.01.2015, 04:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I have so many favourite cathedrals, and all in the UK- Lincoln, Ely and its amazing lantern, York, Canterbury- and the stunning Norman simplicity of Durham, my favourite, and so many more. And also the lovely and smallest of all, also pure Norman, Southwell.

But they were built with sweat, death and pain, with money that were kept from feeding and caring for the people. Most of the builders and stone masons were not religious- and I always wink at my favourite figure, the Lincoln Imp- a little devil carved in the stone, right up there above the nave and altar, by a heathen stonemason sick of being paid a pittance for his talents.

Of course the Church also played a terrible and cruel rôle in the Enclosures and clearances.

While the Cathedrals of Strassburg and Reims and the NotreDame in Paris ARE beautiful, the one which to me is TOP is the Cathedral of CHARTRES


What applies to cathedrals also applies to other remarkable buildings like mosques and palaces and pyramids, the ones who did the work often did not get a good pay, but the Jobs secured their incomes and they often were fairly well paid in comparison to the others, The famous architects of churches and mosques and the artists of the decorations usually were NOT religious at all.


THIS was the thought why Mustafa Kemal Pasha turned the Hagia Sophia into a national museum
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  #208  
Old 19.01.2015, 10:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The famous architects of churches and mosques and the artists of the decorations usually were NOT religious at all.
What a surprise, Wolli...I know you didn't mean it that way and it's not aimed at you, but when people will stop associating high morales and values (only) with religiousness (of any kind)?
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Old 19.01.2015, 11:18
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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While the Cathedrals of Strassburg and Reims and the NotreDame in Paris ARE beautiful, the one which to me is TOP is the Cathedral of CHARTRES


What applies to cathedrals also applies to other remarkable buildings like mosques and palaces and pyramids, the ones who did the work often did not get a good pay, but the Jobs secured their incomes and they often were fairly well paid in comparison to the others, The famous architects of churches and mosques and the artists of the decorations usually were NOT religious at all.


THIS was the thought why Mustafa Kemal Pasha turned the Hagia Sophia into a national museum
There may be mosques that were not paid for properly, but it would be against Islam. There is a Hadith saying that one should pay a worker before his sweat has dried out. And multiple more. For mosques even greater attention is required. A place is not considered Halal if injustice was done at any stage of building it.

Sure, not always followed. Guys in Arab Emirates and around there are a complete disgrace with their terrible treatment of people from South and Southeast Asia.
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Old 19.01.2015, 11:34
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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One of the things I would really like to see, as much as the separation of state and religion, is the separation of religion and politics. Religion really needs to be depoliticized. Some religions are given religious status, yet have an ingrained political aspect to it. That cannot fit in an open democracy. You cannot have a political party that is so sacred that you cannot question it.

This needs to be called out.
I'm not quite sure what you mean.

If somebody has a conviction, and then carries that conviction into politics, should we not accept and deal with that as part of the democratic process? Does it matter whether that idea originally came to that person as a result of reading a holy book, or from reading a dead philosopher, or from watching a Spiderman movie, or God forbid, from original thought and analysis?
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  #211  
Old 19.01.2015, 11:37
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There may be mosques that were not paid for properly, but it would be against Islam. There is a Hadith saying that one should pay a worker before his sweat has dried out. And multiple more. For mosques even greater attention is required. A place is not considered Halal if injustice was done at any stage of building it.

Sure, not always followed. Guys in Arab Emirates and around there are a complete disgrace with their terrible treatment of people from South and Southeast Asia.
Doesn't Islam have quite a few examples of mosques that were actually previosly churches and that were just confiscated. The Haia Sophia for example. If the above Hadith is true, then those places are not really mosques and Muslims shouldn't have a problem giving them back?
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Old 19.01.2015, 12:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Doesn't Islam have quite a few examples of mosques that were actually previosly churches and that were just confiscated. The Haia Sophia for example. If the above Hadith is true, then those places are not really mosques and Muslims shouldn't have a problem giving them back?
Well, the hadith is actually not related to this topic, as it relates to paying for one's work.

I don't know how many there are, I don't think it is that many. If there would be enough Cristian people to attend it, it could make sense, but not if they would be left to demise (for example Istanbul has still quite a number of curches, many at very central locations - in Istiklal street there are three curches and one mosque). There is a certain occasion when Umar ibn Al-Khattab refused to pray in a church (biggest one in Jerusalam) of fear of it being turned into a mosque in future... I don't know if this was his general opinion or because of significance of this particular church though.

But yes, property changes hands after conquests... Otherwise there would not have been wars I guess... On the other hand there is a question what happens to destroyed property, can it be given back? And currently people are having trouble getting back even things taken away 60-70 years ago, e.g. in Communism regimes.
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Old 19.01.2015, 12:52
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There may be mosques that were not paid for properly, but it would be against Islam. There is a Hadith saying that one should pay a worker before his sweat has dried out. And multiple more. .
Same in the Bible, there are many references re. workers' pay. The problem is what was considered to be a fair pay...and those times were not so different from these times.
And ironically, this type of problems (and many more re. inequalities and injustice) weren't solved by religious minds...
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  #214  
Old 19.01.2015, 14:28
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hmmm, from all this controversy would it not be reasonable to assume that religious texts are a little 'out of date'.
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Old 19.01.2015, 14:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Hmmm, from all this controversy would it not be reasonable to assume that religious texts are a little 'out of date'.
If religious texts are based on holiday sales sure...
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  #216  
Old 19.01.2015, 17:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Hmmm, from all this controversy would it not be reasonable to assume that religious texts are a little 'out of date'.
Quite so. And I personally find it ironic the fact that we enjoy our free and more or less comfortable lifestyle which is possible thanks to movements and thinkers who contested the power of the Church, not because the Bible didn't have the "right" answers, as people of other faiths are inclined to believe. But to rely NOW on and act upon a book which was written by men hundreds and hundreds of years ago, which also contains vague and contradictory passages that could be interpreted in ways that have nothing to do with the principles believers pretend they follow....hmmm, I shake my head in disbelief..At least what is called Christian world has cured itself by now from these illusions of grandeur.
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Old 19.01.2015, 21:03
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'd rather see the end of the recognition of churches.

Tom
I don't always agree with SVP-leaning Tom. This is an exception.

Separation (or if you want to be pedantic---disestablishment) of church and state was a good idea for the US in 1791. I honestly think it would be a good idea if more countries tried it---including the United States! *rim shot*
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Old 20.01.2015, 06:47
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I don't always agree with SVP-leaning Tom. This is an exception.

Separation (or if you want to be pedantic---disestablishment) of church and state was a good idea for the US in 1791. I honestly think it would be a good idea if more countries tried it---including the United States! *rim shot*

France has gone much farther with the Separation of church and state than the USA and Switzerland. What irritates me in regard to the USA is that the Religion of politician is so public. And that politicians make a lot of ado around their Denomination. Here you only can guess about the denomination of a politician. Sure, when you hear that Messrs Leuenberger and Blocher are sons of reverends, the guess is easy. Also when you hear that the Grandfather of Mr Burkhalter came from SUMISWALD you know that it is Protestantism to the bones
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Old 20.01.2015, 09:26
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'm not quite sure what you mean.

If somebody has a conviction, and then carries that conviction into politics, should we not accept and deal with that as part of the democratic process? Does it matter whether that idea originally came to that person as a result of reading a holy book, or from reading a dead philosopher, or from watching a Spiderman movie, or God forbid, from original thought and analysis?
There is nothing wrong with politicians holding religious convictions, and forming parties of like-minded constituents. What is wrong is when such parties claim to have the authority of God, and is so sanctified that it is beyond questioning, criticism and reproach.

The US has always had a separation of Church and State. That is a basis of the US constitution.

Any group that goes around claiming the authority of God, and acting as if they were God will likely commit inhumane crimes.
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Old 20.01.2015, 10:53
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I have so many favourite cathedrals, and all in the UK- Lincoln, Ely and its amazing lantern, York, Canterbury- and the stunning Norman simplicity of Durham, my favourite, and so many more. And also the lovely and smallest of all, also pure Norman, Southwell.
If its the stunning simplicity of earlier styles that does it for you, you should definitely visit Kirkwall on the Orkneys.

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But they were built with sweat, death and pain, with money that were kept from feeding and caring for the people. Most of the builders and stone masons were not religious- and I always wink at my favourite figure, the Lincoln Imp- a little devil carved in the stone, right up there above the nave and altar, by a heathen stonemason sick of being paid a pittance for his talents.
We don't actually know very much about the stone masons as ther is very little in the way of records. But I wouldn't infer from some carvings of naughty imps that they weren't religious. In those days the borders between church approved religiousness and folk beliefs (including lots of naughty elements) was much less clearly staked than it is today. We too easily assume today that people then didn't have a sense of humour, didn't do sarcasm, didn't poke fun at authority and strictly kept dirty thoughts (if indeed they had any) to themselves. Poems and song texts from the period tell quite a different story (Chaucer is not one bit PC for example if you read a bit between the lines). It wasn't really until the reformation that the Church started getting strict about what goes and what doesn't. And again England here is a bit of s special case as by separating from Rome, England missed out on both the first wave of the Reformation and the first wave of the Church's reaction thereto. Mary's reign was too short to have much lasting influence and Elizabeth was too smart to tamper more than necessary. The Stuarts were pretty ambivalent and Cromwell's actions largely backfired. After that state-ordained religion began to give way to religious freedom.

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While the Duomo in Firenze is great, the Sagrada Thing in Barcelona is KITSCH
I think there is a clear line between Kitsch and having a sense of humour. Gaudi clearly had the latter, with which i don't mean to imply that he didn't take his mission seriously. It's the modern bleak concrete churches that I have an issue with.
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