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  #221  
Old 20.01.2015, 11:14
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Christianity did not really have cathedrals until the Romans coopted the religion to extend and manage their empire. Prior to that, Christians merely met in private homes and shared meals. Its message was about direct communion between people and God. But when the cathedrals arose, they were fashioned after Roman government buildings and pagan temples with inner sanction altars that only the priesthood entered. Priests were also provided flowing robes that signified them as important government officials, and worship reverted back to intercession through a priesthood structured after a military, and insisted on being called "Fathers". A lot of Western Christianity was fashioned after this model, which is somewhat removed from the original message. Some might argue that is its intended development, but I'm not really convinced, especially if it deviates from the central message. Because of that, I'm fine with Christianity losing Cathedrals and gaining its original and essential message.
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  #222  
Old 20.01.2015, 11:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Doesn't Islam have quite a few examples of mosques that were actually previosly churches and that were just confiscated. The Haia Sophia for example. If the above Hadith is true, then those places are not really mosques and Muslims shouldn't have a problem giving them back?

Sure, as soon as the Spaniards give the mosques in Cordoba and Granada back
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  #223  
Old 20.01.2015, 11:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Christianity did not really have cathedrals until the Romans coopted the religion to extend and manage their empire. Prior to that, Christians merely met in private homes and shared meals. Its message was about direct communion between people and God. But when the cathedrals arose, they were fashioned after Roman government buildings and pagan temples with inner sanction altars that only the priesthood entered.
The Romans were actually pretty easy-going as far as religion was concerned. They beleived all religions were one, so when Caesar went into Gaul for example and learnt about their gods, he was able to say, this guy is actually the same as Jupiter and this one the same as Apollo. They thus had no problem stealing most of the Greek mythology as it was more interesting than their own. The Romans thus didn't confront other religions but treated them as if they were some branch or variant of their own and had no problem stealing and borrowing bits.

The thing with the Christians (and also the Jews by the way) was that they refused this. The Christians were not persecuted for being Christians, but for refusing to jump onto the bandwaggon saying the their god was just some different name for one of the Roman ones. The Romans would have been quite OK with the Christians had they done that. So you could maybe see certain parallels here to modern day concepts of religious tolerance which are OK as long as certain lines (ie, the de facto state religion such as PC concepts) are not crossed.

Constantine changed all that, and said that if the Christians weren't going to adopt the state religion, then the state religion would adopt Christianity.

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Priests were also provided flowing robes that signified them as important government officials, and worship reverted back to intercession through a priesthood structured after a military, and insisted on being called "Fathers".
The Jews had a robed priesthood, and with the early Christians being Jews, I think this is the more likely explanation. The Bible says something about Aaron wearing a special robe to pray, so it goes back to earliest times. Wearing a special robe is like laying aside your normal day-to-day persona, so its more than just empty symbolism. Similarly, judges today wear robes.
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  #224  
Old 20.01.2015, 11:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Sure, as soon as the Spaniards give the mosques in Cordoba and Granada back
You mean the mosques that were previously Visigoth cathedrals that the Muslims took away from them?
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  #225  
Old 20.01.2015, 12:13
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The Romans were actually pretty easy-going as far as religion was concerned. They beleived all religions were one, so when Caesar went into Gaul for example and learnt about their gods, he was able to say, this guy is actually the same as Jupiter and this one the same as Apollo. They thus had no problem stealing most of the Greek mythology as it was more interesting than their own. The Romans thus didn't confront other religions but treated them as if they were some branch or variant of their own and had no problem stealing and borrowing bits.

The thing with the Christians (and also the Jews by the way) was that they refused this. The Christians were not persecuted for being Christians, but for refusing to jump onto the bandwaggon saying the their god was just some different name for one of the Roman ones. The Romans would have been quite OK with the Christians had they done that. So you could maybe see certain parallels here to modern day concepts of religious tolerance which are OK as long as certain lines (ie, the de facto state religion such as PC concepts) are not crossed.

Constantine changed all that, and said that if the Christians weren't going to adopt the state religion, then the state religion would adopt Christianity.



The Jews had a robed priesthood, and with the early Christians being Jews, I think this is the more likely explanation. The Bible says something about Aaron wearing a special robe to pray, so it goes back to earliest times. Wearing a special robe is like laying aside your normal day-to-day persona, so its more than just empty symbolism. Similarly, judges today wear robes.

The early Christians were iconoclastic and did not buy into superstitions. They went around arguing against religious practices of idolatry, some of which involved the sacrifice of people and children to gods, and immoral living. Some of the stories of early apostles were about the debunking of superstitions and religious practices. The were proclaiming freedom from world religions. This upset a lot of people and they weren't particularly liked for it. It was a radical proclamation of freedom, and I guess they weren't very religiously tolerant.

The epistles of Paul made it clear that gentiles who accepted Christianity are not Jews, and not subject to Jewish laws. He claimed justification can only be met by grace through faith, and that nobody can meet the requirements of the law as set by religion for justification.
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  #226  
Old 20.01.2015, 13:49
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The Romans were actually pretty easy-going as far as religion was concerned. They beleived all religions were one, so when Caesar went into Gaul for example and learnt about their gods, he was able to say, this guy is actually the same as Jupiter and this one the same as Apollo. They thus had no problem stealing most of the Greek mythology as it was more interesting than their own. The Romans thus didn't confront other religions but treated them as if they were some branch or variant of their own and had no problem stealing and borrowing bits.

The thing with the Christians (and also the Jews by the way) was that they refused this. The Christians were not persecuted for being Christians, but for refusing to jump onto the bandwaggon saying the their god was just some different name for one of the Roman ones. The Romans would have been quite OK with the Christians had they done that. So you could maybe see certain parallels here to modern day concepts of religious tolerance which are OK as long as certain lines (ie, the de facto state religion such as PC concepts) are not crossed.

Constantine changed all that, and said that if the Christians weren't going to adopt the state religion, then the state religion would adopt Christianity.



The Jews had a robed priesthood, and with the early Christians being Jews, I think this is the more likely explanation. The Bible says something about Aaron wearing a special robe to pray, so it goes back to earliest times. Wearing a special robe is like laying aside your normal day-to-day persona, so its more than just empty symbolism. Similarly, judges today wear robes.

Not easy goeing at all. Felix, Regula and Exuperantius got beheaded by the Romans. But took their heads under their arms and marched up to the place where the Grossmünster is now and made it clear that a cathedral had to be built right there
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  #227  
Old 20.01.2015, 13:51
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You mean the mosques that were previously Visigoth cathedrals that the Muslims took away from them?
No the places which used to be pigs-yards before
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  #228  
Old 20.01.2015, 14:13
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The epistles of Paul made it clear that gentiles who accepted Christianity are not Jews, and not subject to Jewish laws. He claimed justification can only be met by grace through faith, and that nobody can meet the requirements of the law as set by religion for justification.
Neverthless, Christians ignored a lot of stuff Paul said. This is why Paul gets quite angry at times. In fact for the first couple of generations, Christians were a pretty divided group and there were conflicting versions of the Gospels doing the rounds. It was not until after a long series of synods and councils (most of which happened after official recognition by the Romans) that they got all the details thrashed out and agreed on central questions of theology and which texts belonged in the Bible and which didn't (and this didn't prevent breakaway groups from trying to go back on those decisons). The Roman robe would have been a toga which is something you wrap yourself in. The Christian style is more akin in design to the Jewish one as in going over your shoulders and hanging down straight on both the front and back. So far lack of evidence to the contrary, I would think this is the more logical inspiration.
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Old 20.01.2015, 14:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Not easy goeing at all. Felix, Regula and Exuperantius got beheaded by the Romans. But took their heads under their arms and marched up to the place where the Grossmünster is now and made it clear that a cathedral had to be built right there
They were beheaded for refusing to pray to the Roman gods. The Romans didn't mind people having their own private gods on the side, you just had to reconcile those with the official ones. Some early Christians did that, or at least went through the motions, and they were left in peace.

So, as I said, not too different to today. You can have whatever religion you want but don't you dare speak out against certain unassailable secular values (modern equivalent of state religion).
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  #230  
Old 20.01.2015, 14:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Despite the fact that I do try to respect others religious beliefs, I cannot deny that part of me wishes we could just ship all the religious people in the world off to a remote island somewhere and let them fight it out for themselves (a bit like a penal colony, I suppose). It's becoming rather excruciating to have to sit back and witness this seemingly endless vicious circle of a war between ideologies.

It seems that people will always believe what they want to believe.
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  #231  
Old 20.01.2015, 14:36
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It seems that people will always believe what they want to believe.
I thought most people believed what their parents or guardians believe?

In the grand scale of things, there aren't that many converts.
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  #232  
Old 20.01.2015, 14:43
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

This is what happens when people fail to understand each others languages ...........never mind their religions

http://youtu.be/rV7loo0cN4Y
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  #233  
Old 20.01.2015, 15:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I thought most people believed what their parents or guardians believe?

In the grand scale of things, there aren't that many converts.
Well, perhaps it is that most people want to believe what their parents or guardians (and/or what they perceive as the majority) believe? Maybe it's the whole (perceived) taboo of rejecting tradition. Or maybe some find religion more comforting than Science.

I agree that most of our beliefs are shaped by the circumstances in our lives, but at the same time, I also think that any truly rational human being will, at some point, begin to question the basis of his or her own ideologies.
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Old 20.01.2015, 15:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I have so many favourite cathedrals, and all in the UK- Lincoln, Ely and its amazing lantern, York, Canterbury- and the stunning Norman simplicity of Durham, my favourite, and so many more. And also the lovely and smallest of all, also pure Norman, Southwell.

But they were built with sweat, death and pain, with money that were kept from feeding and caring for the people. Most of the builders and stone masons were not religious- and I always wink at my favourite figure, the Lincoln Imp- a little devil carved in the stone, right up there above the nave and altar, by a heathen stonemason sick of being paid a pittance for his talents.

Of course the Church also played a terrible and cruel rôle in the Enclosures and clearances.
This stonemason's opinion was quite clear, I think

Gargoyle, Santiago de Compostela's Cathedral
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  #235  
Old 20.01.2015, 15:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I thought most people believed what their parents or guardians believe?

In the grand scale of things, there aren't that many converts.
I'm not so sure.

Religions such as Mormonism that have grown from zero to a relatively large size in relatively recent history

And also within religions there are generational shifts. So even if you've got the same bible and same prayer book as your grandparents, you probably don't interpret everything in precisely the same way, especially when it comes to topics where society has also changed.
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  #236  
Old 20.01.2015, 16:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

It is factually true that every religion fractures along diverse ideas, with each side pointing to each other as heretics. It happens in Christianity, and it happens in Islam. It continues to happen, and has failed to unite in peace. Even foot washing Baptist churches fracture along the lines of which foot to wash, the left or the right. Which leads to the conclusion that humans are not capable of getting it right.

I think the main problem is the human need to claim to be right. I think everyone should just admit to being wrong, and are in desperate need of help. First road to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
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Old 20.01.2015, 16:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Well, I think it's definitely much more socially acceptable to label oneself as an atheist now (in the Western world) than it was 50 years ago, more or less. Of course this doesn't apply everywhere, but back then, it seems like everyone felt compelled to follow one denomination or another, or at least to label themselves as such. I mean, who wanted to be the only person in the neighborhood not attending church?

Perhaps this new freedom to choose what one does or does not believe is due to advances in Science and that it has been made more accessible to the masses in the past century. Whereas religion pretends to supply preexisting answers, Science emphasizes the importance of questioning reality. I do think, though, that there will always be those who prefer "easy answers" to a truth that they might find less comforting.
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  #238  
Old 20.01.2015, 17:33
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Well, I think it's definitely much more socially acceptable to label oneself as an atheist now (in the Western world) than it was 50 years ago, more or less. Of course this doesn't apply everywhere, but back then, it seems like everyone felt compelled to follow one denomination or another, or at least to label themselves as such. I mean, who wanted to be the only person in the neighborhood not attending church?

Perhaps this new freedom to choose what one does or does not believe is due to advances in Science and that it has been made more accessible to the masses in the past century. Whereas religion pretends to supply preexisting answers, Science emphasizes the importance of questioning reality. I do think, though, that there will always be those who prefer "easy answers" to a truth that they might find less comforting.
But atheism is a disbelief in God, and religiousity is an adherence to a religion. In between these two dichotomies are people who have a belief in God, yet do not totally agree with Religions. These have been conventionally labelled Agnostics, but I don't think that is accurate. Some will simply claim to be theists or spiritualist. I do believe it is quite possible to have faith and belief in God without the conventions of a Religion. In fact, I suspect God would prefer it that way. But then, maybe that is just me.
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Old 20.01.2015, 17:51
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'm not so sure.

Religions such as Mormonism that have grown from zero to a relatively large size in relatively recent history

.
I did write in the grand scale of things.

There are more Hindus in a couple of Indian cities than there are Mormons on the whole planet.


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And also within religions there are generational shifts. So even if you've got the same bible and same prayer book as your grandparents, you probably don't interpret everything in precisely the same way, especially when it comes to topics where society has also changed.
Fair enough but I wasn't trying to be that specific.

If we asked people on this forum whether they had the same religion as their parents or had changed because of spouse, for example, I reckon, excluding the people who have dropped religion entirely or are agnostic, you're probably on to 90% who have the same as their parents.

Which was my point when answering Pancake's post.
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Old 20.01.2015, 18:39
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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But atheism is a disbelief in God, and religiousity is an adherence to a religion. In between these two dichotomies are people who have a belief in God, yet do not totally agree with Religions. These have been conventionally labelled Agnostics, but I don't think that is accurate. Some will simply claim to be theists or spiritualist. I do believe it is quite possible to have faith and belief in God without the conventions of a Religion. In fact, I suspect God would prefer it that way. But then, maybe that is just me.
Nothing wrong with adherence to a religion as long as people will use it as a way of inner spiritual advancement, understanding and tolerance, or simply as a way of dealing with whatever life throws at them (it is known that many people become religious after different events in their personal life). Even so, questioning some of its rules, practices and ideas should be a necessary process. But I guess it's easier to deny there are sects within a religion, as long as identifying yourself with a very large group can be used for political purposes.
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