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  #241  
Old 20.01.2015, 18:45
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I did write in the grand scale of things.

There are more Hindus in a couple of Indian cities than there are Mormons on the whole planet.
Yes, but Mormons didn't emerge homogenically from across the planet but from a (numerically speaking) relatively small pool of people. Hence the message of the missionaries (OK, I admit to not being an expert on the history of Mormonism, so assuming here) and also the conditions were so convincing. So maybe at times not much changes for hundreds of generations, but then it can flip within a handful of generations, if not within a single generation.

It's chaos theory really, looking at every situation and deciding how stable it is and seeing that things that have been stable for a very long time may suddenly become instable.

If you're standing on the edge of a cliff over the sea and there is a massive storm batering the cliff below, I don't think the statistical observation that 99.9% of the earth's land mass are not going to be affected by erosion this year is going to make you feel any safer.
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  #242  
Old 20.01.2015, 19:05
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Nothing wrong with adherence to a religion as long as people will use it as a way of inner spiritual advancement, understanding and tolerance, or simply as a way of dealing with whatever life throws at them (it is known that many people become religious after different events in their personal life). Even so, questioning some of its rules, practices and ideas should be a necessary process. But I guess it's easier to deny there are sects within a religion, as long as identifying yourself with a very large group can be used for political purposes.
Eeek. I just saw a photo of a street littered with headless bodies and another photo of 375 of men, women and children totally burned. The work of Boko Haram. Amnesty International estimated 2,000 in one day. Another photo of accused homosexuals being thrown off a high tower to their deaths by ISIS. That was done in the name of their religion. That has to be called out for what it is. Perhaps I should not be talking about religion at the moment. I'm disgusted and angry about these.

However people use their religions, whether for inner peace, to outwardly align to a culture or to profit, the evil part is enforcing it on others against their will.
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  #243  
Old 20.01.2015, 21:22
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Eeek. I just saw a photo of a street littered with headless bodies and another photo of 375 of men, women and children totally burned. The work of Boko Haram. Amnesty International estimated 2,000 in one day. Another photo of accused homosexuals being thrown off a high tower to their deaths by ISIS. That was done in the name of their religion. That has to be called out for what it is. Perhaps I should not be talking about religion at the moment. I'm disgusted and angry about these.

However people use their religions, whether for inner peace, to outwardly align to a culture or to profit, the evil part is enforcing it on others against their will.
As cynical as it might sound, it seems the world doesn't care too much about these victims. Haven't seen massive street protests anywhere in the world.
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  #244  
Old 20.01.2015, 21:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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They were beheaded for refusing to pray to the Roman gods. The Romans didn't mind people having their own private gods on the side, you just had to reconcile those with the official ones. Some early Christians did that, or at least went through the motions, and they were left in peace.

So, as I said, not too different to today. You can have whatever religion you want but don't you dare speak out against certain unassailable secular values (modern equivalent of state religion).

Real Christians and real Muslims were NOT to pray to alternative gods. The Declaration of Faith in Islam includes the Statement la ilaha Allah Allah wa Mohammed Rasul Ullah Es gibt keine Götter, Gott ist Gott und Mohammed Prophet Gottes
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  #245  
Old 20.01.2015, 21:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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As cynical as it might sound, it seems the world doesn't care too much about these victims. Haven't seen massive street protests anywhere in the world.
Not massive but still:

hundreds rally in Paris against Boko Haram massacres

The Nigerian government seem pretty complacent about the whole thing. If a government reflects the feelings of it's people then perhaps they don't really care enough either?
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  #246  
Old 21.01.2015, 00:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Eeek. I just saw a photo of a street littered with headless bodies and another photo of 375 of men, women and children totally burned. The work of Boko Haram. Amnesty International estimated 2,000 in one day. Another photo of accused homosexuals being thrown off a high tower to their deaths by ISIS. That was done in the name of their religion. That has to be called out for what it is. Perhaps I should not be talking about religion at the moment. I'm disgusted and angry about these.

However people use their religions, whether for inner peace, to outwardly align to a culture or to profit, the evil part is enforcing it on others against their will.
About "That was done in the name of their religion."
Well Muslims, Christians and Jews all trace the common origin of their religions to Abraham who had no problem tying his son to an altar for sacrifice; so what has changed?
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  #247  
Old 21.01.2015, 00:57
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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About "That was done in the name of their religion."
Well Muslims, Christians and Jews all trace the common origin of their religions to Abraham who had no problem tying his son to an altar for sacrifice; so what has changed?
They can spread the verb with Google Translate, I suppose.
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  #248  
Old 21.01.2015, 01:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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They can spread the verb with Google Translate, I suppose.
it's called levitating grammar.
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  #249  
Old 21.01.2015, 02:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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real Muslims were NOT to pray to alternative gods.
No true Scotsman neither...
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  #250  
Old 21.01.2015, 10:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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About "That was done in the name of their religion."
Well Muslims, Christians and Jews all trace the common origin of their religions to Abraham who had no problem tying his son to an altar for sacrifice; so what has changed?
You need to read further to learn that the sacrifice did not occur. For Christians, it was a test that if Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, than God is willing to sacrifice his son for humanity's redemption. What changed is that it was ultimate sacrifice that ended all sacrifices. There are no more such sacrifices in Christianity.
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  #251  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You need to read further to learn that the sacrifice did not occur. For Christians, it was a test that if Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, than God is willing to sacrifice his son for humanity's redemption. What changed is that it was ultimate sacrifice that ended all sacrifices. There are no more such sacrifices in Christianity.
But there were between Abraham and Jesus. Many in fact.
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  #252  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:14
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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But there were between Abraham and Jesus. Many in fact.
Abraham = stop human sacrifices, God doesn't want human blood to be spilt in his name
Jesus = stop all sacrifices, God doesn't want to see anything killed or any stuff destroyed in his name. The only sacrifices God likes are those of charity and love.
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  #253  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You need to read further to learn that the sacrifice did not occur. For Christians, it was a test that if Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, than God is willing to sacrifice his son for humanity's redemption. What changed is that it was ultimate sacrifice that ended all sacrifices. There are no more such sacrifices in Christianity.
Not just a test, but also a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice. Further, Abraham was in receipt of a promise that through Isaac he would have many descendants. (Abraham means "father of nations"), therefore it is not unreasonable to suggest that he trusted God to intervene. By the by - Jewish art suggests that Isaac was a great strapping man at the time, not a little boy.
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  #254  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:44
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You need to read further to learn that the sacrifice did not occur. For Christians, it was a test that if Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, than God is willing to sacrifice his son for humanity's redemption. What changed is that it was ultimate sacrifice that ended all sacrifices. There are no more such sacrifices in Christianity.
I know.

The key point is not that the sacrifice did not occur, the key point is that Abraham was willing and and able to do it. An angel stepped in and stopped it. If not then he would have done it.

Also lucky he did not say "my instructions came direct from God I cannot accept a change from just an angel"
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  #255  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Not just a test, but also a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice. Further, Abraham was in receipt of a promise that through Isaac he would have many descendants. (Abraham means "father of nations"), therefore it is not unreasonable to suggest that he trusted God to intervene. By the by - Jewish art suggests that Isaac was a great strapping man at the time, not a little boy.
About "it is not unreasonable to suggest that he trusted God to intervene" So he lied to God when he said he was willing to sacrifice his son? He expected not to have to do it?

BTW, early Jewish texts suggest the son in question was Ishmael (who was anyway not popular) not Isaac.
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  #256  
Old 21.01.2015, 12:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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BTW, early Jewish texts suggest the son in question was Ishmael (who was anyway not popular) not Isaac.
This is one of the points of contention between Muslims and Jews to this day. With Isaac being considered to be the ancestor of the Jews, and Ishmael of the Arabs, the Muslims accuse the Jews of having changed their version of the story to put themselves in a better position. I'm not sure how non-Arab Muslims, who don't have a stake either way, see this dispute.
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  #257  
Old 21.01.2015, 13:01
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Abraham = stop human sacrifices, God doesn't want human blood to be spilt in his name
Jesus = stop all sacrifices, God doesn't want to see anything killed or any stuff destroyed in his name. The only sacrifices God likes are those of charity and love.
The Aga Khan = god wants me to live in Knightsbridge and own race horses.
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  #258  
Old 21.01.2015, 13:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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BTW, early Jewish texts suggest the son in question was Ishmael (who was anyway not popular) not Isaac.
Not so. This is a big difference in narrative and contention between Judaism and Islam. The Torah identifies Isaac. The Quran leaves it nameless, although the companions of Mohammad acknowledges the pre-existing Torah and that it refers to Isaac.

Later scripture depicts God as identifying himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Also found in the New Testament. Christianity refers to Torah narrative.

Ishmael means "God who hears", so is also a nod to his descendents. But it is a different narrative from Christianity. Muslims believe the Torah and the Bible was altered.
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Old 21.01.2015, 15:22
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Abraham = stop human sacrifices, God doesn't want human blood to be spilt in his name
Jesus = stop all sacrifices, God doesn't want to see anything killed or any stuff destroyed in his name. The only sacrifices God likes are those of charity and love.
All good as long as we don't go around telling people ""Jesus loves you too!!!" as my exalted Brazilian friend did in a gas station when she saw a sad (or just tired I suspect) employee...and he was a Muslim..
When she told me this story I couldn't stop laughing for 10 minutes..poor guy! She's something, she really is.
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  #260  
Old 21.01.2015, 15:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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All good as long as we don't go around telling people ""Jesus loves you too!!!" as my exalted Brazilian friend did in a gas station when she saw a sad (or just tired I suspect) employee...and he was a Muslim..
When she told me this story I couldn't stop laughing for 10 minutes..poor guy! She's something, she really is.
Why not?

I regularly get "Happy Divali" wishes from some of the Indian guys I work with. I've even been invited to (and attended) a Divali party and participated in all the celebrations. I interpret their intentions as a gesture of goodwill towards me, which I appreciate. I don't go around grovelling and being insulted that they are exposing me to their religous stuff against my will, or accusing them of trying to convert me.

I similarly wish them Merry Christmas and I hope they take that in the same light.

Suppressing and controlling dark thoughts is often a good idea. but why suppress good thoughts and intentions?
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