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  #261  
Old 21.01.2015, 16:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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All good as long as we don't go around telling people ""Jesus loves you too!!!" as my exalted Brazilian friend did in a gas station when she saw a sad (or just tired I suspect) employee...and he was a Muslim..
When she told me this story I couldn't stop laughing for 10 minutes..poor guy! She's something, she really is.
Why not? Jesus loves Muslims, and Muslims know of Isa. The only Muslims who should have a problem with that are those with a political axe (or sword) to grind.
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  #262  
Old 21.01.2015, 16:10
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I know.

The key point is not that the sacrifice did not occur, the key point is that Abraham was willing and and able to do it. An angel stepped in and stopped it. If not then he would have done it.

Also lucky he did not say "my instructions came direct from God I cannot accept a change from just an angel"
I'm not sure what bearing an event which may or may not have occurred thousands of years ago has on this conversation...i think we might have strayed a little. That said...

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This is one of the points of contention between Muslims and Jews to this day. With Isaac being considered to be the ancestor of the Jews, and Ishmael of the Arabs, the Muslims accuse the Jews of having changed their version of the story to put themselves in a better position. I'm not sure how non-Arab Muslims, who don't have a stake either way, see this dispute.
Most simply accept they don't know for absolute certain. For most, the emphasis is on the fact that he was willing to do it, not because he didn't care about his son, but because he loved mankind to such an extent that he was willing to sacrifice a loved one. The actual son involved becomes a moot point when you look at it from this perspective.

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Why not?

I regularly get "Happy Divali" wishes from some of the Indian guys I work with. I've even been invited to (and attended) a Divali party and participated in all the celebrations. I interpret their intentions as a gesture of goodwill towards me, which I appreciate. I don't go around grovelling and being insulted that they are exposing me to their religous stuff against my will, or accusing them of trying to convert me.

I similarly wish them Merry Christmas and I hope they take that in the same light.

Suppressing and controlling dark thoughts is often a good idea. but why suppress good thoughts and intentions?
I don't think greenmount was saying the Muslim was was offended, just that it was a humerous anecdote. I cant think of any reason a muslim would be. I wish Merry Christmas to all of my Muslim friends (and all of my Muslim customers) and i've never had a complaint. Most just say 'Thank you, and to you too' or words to that affect.

In fact, come to think of it, I've never come across any muslim who has taken offence to it. I keep hearing they exist but they must be hiding.

To the topic at hand, i don't think it will have any impact on daily life, nor any impact on anyone here. In fact, it might be a good thing, showing that the state recognizes that it has a Muslim population and informally recognizing them as part of Switzerland. might help defuse tensions not just in Switzerland but further across Europe.

That said, i think those people who oppose it, for whatever reason (those that make sense and those that are just plain stupid), are simply too strong. I cant see it ever happening, particularly when attacks on mosques are at their highest ever level around Europe. Most Swiss Muslims i've met just want to be left alone.
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  #263  
Old 21.01.2015, 16:26
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I find Muslims, Christians and Jews get along fine on individual basis. There are a multitude of areas where they share the same perspective, and have similar approaches to. It only goes wrong when topics of politics and doctrinal differences are aired and discuss. Which perhaps should be considered taboo in such situations.

Last edited by Phos; 21.01.2015 at 16:40.
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  #264  
Old 21.01.2015, 16:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I don't think greenmount was saying the Muslim was was offended, just that it was a humerous anecdote. .
Yes, you're right. I think he was just very surprised. And if he was indeed sad, or troubled, or thinking of his own personal problems, I don't think he really needed some stranger coming to him to assure him in a rather peculiar way that everything is going to be alright... If I have a problem I need my time alone to think it through, but that's just me maybe.
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  #265  
Old 05.02.2015, 23:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hi everyone, sorry i havnt replied to many questions that were given to me. I hope we all get our answers, God willing.
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  #266  
Old 06.02.2015, 01:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I find Muslims, Christians and Jews get along fine on individual basis. There are a multitude of areas where they share the same perspective, and have similar approaches to. It only goes wrong when topics of politics and doctrinal differences are aired and discuss. Which perhaps should be considered taboo in such situations.


The Jews as usual are very well organised
http://www.icz.org/246


**********************************************


A federation of the various Sunni Mainstream communities (as there are Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i) should also become recognized, as should be the Greek Orthodox Church
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  #267  
Old 06.02.2015, 01:44
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I find Muslims, Christians and Jews get along fine on individual basis. There are a multitude of areas where they share the same perspective, and have similar approaches to. It only goes wrong when topics of politics and doctrinal differences are aired and discuss. Which perhaps should be considered taboo in such situations.

Not only on the individual Basis. I know a town where the Roman Catholic priest, the Protestant Reverend and the Turkish Sunni Imam since the 1980ies work closely together. The three chaps together have clout as they reach a clear majority of people
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  #268  
Old 06.02.2015, 02:21
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'm not sure what bearing an event which may or may not have occurred thousands of years ago has on this conversation...i think we might have strayed a little. That said...



Most simply accept they don't know for absolute certain. For most, the emphasis is on the fact that he was willing to do it, not because he didn't care about his son, but because he loved mankind to such an extent that he was willing to sacrifice a loved one. The actual son involved becomes a moot point when you look at it from this perspective.



I don't think greenmount was saying the Muslim was was offended, just that it was a humerous anecdote. I cant think of any reason a muslim would be. I wish Merry Christmas to all of my Muslim friends (and all of my Muslim customers) and i've never had a complaint. Most just say 'Thank you, and to you too' or words to that affect.

In fact, come to think of it, I've never come across any muslim who has taken offence to it. I keep hearing they exist but they must be hiding.

To the topic at hand, i don't think it will have any impact on daily life, nor any impact on anyone here. In fact, it might be a good thing, showing that the state recognizes that it has a Muslim population and informally recognizing them as part of Switzerland. might help defuse tensions not just in Switzerland but further across Europe.

That said, i think those people who oppose it, for whatever reason (those that make sense and those that are just plain stupid), are simply too strong. I cant see it ever happening, particularly when attacks on mosques are at their highest ever level around Europe. Most Swiss Muslims i've met just want to be left alone.
About "I'm not sure what bearing an event which may or may not have occurred thousands of years ago has on this conversation...i think we might have strayed a little"
If those events had not occurred then we would not be having this conversation because there would be no Abrahamic religions and consequently no requirement to ask should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?
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  #269  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The Jews as usual are very well organised
http://www.icz.org/246


**********************************************


A federation of the various Sunni Mainstream communities (as there are Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i) should also become recognized, as should be the Greek Orthodox Church
Why not Shia Islam too? Is it because they're not as "loud" as the others?
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  #270  
Old 06.02.2015, 11:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Yea, then why not Louis Farrakah 's Nation of Islam? They make these excellent Bean Pies they sell at street corners. Might as well get something tasty out of it.

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  #271  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Yea, then why not Louis Farrakah 's Nation of Islam? They make these excellent Bean Pies they sell at street corners. Might as well get something tasty out of it.


Seriously, that didn't answer my question.

I have my own supposition that "it's because of Iran" kind of an explanation, which only proves double standard way of thinking.
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  #272  
Old 06.02.2015, 12:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Seriously, that didn't answer my question.

I have my own supposition that "it's because of Iran" kind of an explanation, which only proves double standard way of thinking.
Oh sorry, didn't think you were looking for a serious answer.

I suspect this thread is not really about religious freedom, rather the freedom of a particular sect to spread and proselytize in Switzerland.

What if they start warring with each other across Gemeindes?
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  #273  
Old 06.02.2015, 13:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Why not Shia Islam too? Is it because they're not as "loud" as the others?
Shia Islam also but of course separately, just as the Protestant and the Roman Catholic church are separate

I did NOT mention Hanbali-Sunnis as I suppose that they are not interested

The Shi'ites are louder than anybody else
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  #274  
Old 06.02.2015, 13:29
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Yea, then why not Louis Farrakah 's Nation of Islam? They make these excellent Bean Pies they sell at street corners. Might as well get something tasty out of it.

Farrakah's organisation is a small fringe sect, and does not have many members in Switzerland
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  #275  
Old 06.02.2015, 13:46
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Farrakah's organisation is a small fringe sect, and does not have many members in Switzerland
He's not that small and fringey.

Obama even had to distance himself from the support Farrakahn was pledging to him during the 2008 election.

He wouldn't need to do that if Farrakahn was a totally insignificant nobody.

Although a lot of what he says is complete tosh and baloney, Farrakhan is a great and highly gifted speaker and has a sense of humour and irony that is rare among religious leaders. Well worth watching on Youtube.
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  #276  
Old 06.02.2015, 14:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Yeah, he's got entertainment value, and the bean pies are great.

You see, I don't know who's idea it is to divorce sense of humour from religion. It should be required and mandated. If it does not have room for a sense of humour, lets not have it.
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  #277  
Old 06.02.2015, 23:53
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Absolutely not !
Islam is not a religion but a fascist ideology that seeks to dominate every aspect of the life of its followers (Islam means ''submission'' in Arabic) . The current events in Europe and the Middle East suggest that we need less Islam, not more. There are numerous verses in the Quran asking for violence, for the killing of "non-believers". Yes, there are such in the Bible, however, Jesus, an innocuous and harmless hippy sort of reverted most of them and at least gave grounds for interpreting the Bible in a non-violent way.
Islam is , on the other hand, not open to interpretation. Mohammad made it clear with his numerous conquests and murders, how he wants his followers to spread Islam. Yes, the "early Mohammad" was less violent and wrote some pleasant things, but the later verses of the "blood-thirsty Mohammad" completely supersede these earlier, peaceful, verses; theoretically and practically.
Islam is a completely different "culture" and it has absolutely no place in Europe.
Yes, there are moderate muslims, however, the moderate muslims are inspired by the same literature and role model as the radical muslims.

For these reasons, Islam is a threat and should be considered as such.

The atrocities done by ISIS are not to be regarded as "extreme". ISIS just follows what is written in the Quran. Before each execution, they carefully quote the verses that were breached. Saudi Arabia, on a state level, does precisely the same. This proves that both terrorists and "our allies" use the same source to justify their atrocities.
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  #278  
Old 07.02.2015, 00:00
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

You have indeed Keine Ahnung! Have you ever read the Bible, especially the First Testament- there is some pretty violent stuff there too.

The problem is not with Islam or Muslims- but with the interpretation by some.

It should however not become a Church of Switzerland, there I agree.
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Old 07.02.2015, 00:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You have indeed Keine Ahnung! Have you ever read the Bible, especially the First Testament- there is some pretty violent stuff there too.

The problem is not with Islam or Muslims- but with the interpretation by some.

It should however not become a Church of Switzerland, there I agree.
Did you read my post ? I explicitly said that in the Old testimony there is violence. Too much of it. But then it comes Christ and serves as an example that it doesnt matter how you live in this world, but its the next life thats important. Basically, Christ advocates - never take any action to improve your current well-being. YOu will be rewarded later on"

In Islam, Mohammad, a rapist, murderer, and war-lord, specifically instructs muslims to die in the name of ALlah, fighting infidels, because there are 72 virgins waiting for them.

It is not up for interpretation at all. It is as explicit as it gets.

I am just happy that more and more people are starting to see the truth and blind political correctness gives its way to rationalism. Well, except in the UK. They are hopeless They even banned people who talk against Islam (Pamella Geller) from entering the UK..... did you see what happens when Islam penetrates a country ? Freedom of speech and expression just dies.
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  #280  
Old 07.02.2015, 00:13
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

If the world ever learns to live without (all) religion…. it will be a much better place!
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