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  #281  
Old 07.02.2015, 00:15
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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If the world ever learns to live without (all) religion…. it will be a much better place!
Its impossible man.
Religion gives people a sense of belonging and hope. I think part of this is because people are too afraid and overwhelmed by death...and they cannot just imagine that it all ends one day . ...
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  #282  
Old 07.02.2015, 01:11
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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He's not that small and fringey.

Obama even had to distance himself from the support Farrakahn was pledging to him during the 2008 election.

He wouldn't need to do that if Farrakahn was a totally insignificant nobody.

Although a lot of what he says is complete tosh and baloney, Farrakhan is a great and highly gifted speaker and has a sense of humour and irony that is rare among religious leaders. Well worth watching on Youtube.

May well be, but here in Central Europe, he and his sect are rather irrelevant.
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  #283  
Old 07.02.2015, 01:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Absolutely not !
Islam is not a religion but a fascist ideology that seeks to dominate every aspect of the life of its followers (Islam means ''submission'' in Arabic) . The current events in Europe and the Middle East suggest that we need less Islam, not more. There are numerous verses in the Quran asking for violence, for the killing of "non-believers". Yes, there are such in the Bible, however, Jesus, an innocuous and harmless hippy sort of reverted most of them and at least gave grounds for interpreting the Bible in a non-violent way.
Islam is , on the other hand, not open to interpretation. Mohammad made it clear with his numerous conquests and murders, how he wants his followers to spread Islam. Yes, the "early Mohammad" was less violent and wrote some pleasant things, but the later verses of the "blood-thirsty Mohammad" completely supersede these earlier, peaceful, verses; theoretically and practically.
Islam is a completely different "culture" and it has absolutely no place in Europe.
Yes, there are moderate muslims, however, the moderate muslims are inspired by the same literature and role model as the radical muslims.

For these reasons, Islam is a threat and should be considered as such.

The atrocities done by ISIS are not to be regarded as "extreme". ISIS just follows what is written in the Quran. Before each execution, they carefully quote the verses that were breached. Saudi Arabia, on a state level, does precisely the same. This proves that both terrorists and "our allies" use the same source to justify their atrocities.


The question is not about less or more Islam, but how Islam gets organized internally and integrated externally. Islam means Subordination to God and I cannot quite see what is bad about this


NO, Isis does NOT follow what is written in the Koran. They do an extreme Interpretation of Islam and proceed accordingly.


That you love to Support ISIS reveals your inner desires
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  #284  
Old 07.02.2015, 01:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Did you read my post ? I explicitly said that in the Old testimony there is violence. Too much of it. But then it comes Christ and serves as an example that it doesnt matter how you live in this world, but its the next life thats important. Basically, Christ advocates - never take any action to improve your current well-being. YOu will be rewarded later on"

In Islam, Mohammad, a rapist, murderer, and war-lord, specifically instructs muslims to die in the name of ALlah, fighting infidels, because there are 72 virgins waiting for them.

It is not up for interpretation at all. It is as explicit as it gets.

I am just happy that more and more people are starting to see the truth and blind political correctness gives its way to rationalism. Well, except in the UK. They are hopeless They even banned people who talk against Islam (Pamella Geller) from entering the UK..... did you see what happens when Islam penetrates a country ? Freedom of speech and expression just dies.

No, in Islam God does not instruct Muslims to fight but to be peaceful if the other side is peaceful, You again prefer a hostile Interpretation


In your Posts is not much rationalism


And to state that Britain is PENETRATED by Islam is rather extreme
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  #285  
Old 07.02.2015, 03:37
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No, in Islam God does not instruct Muslims to fight but to be peaceful if the other side is peaceful, You again prefer a hostile Interpretation
I guess that Obama and Cameron succeeded in brainwashing people that Islam is a religion of peace, after all....

Since you claim that I prefer a hostile interpretation, please advise how to interpret that in a more...benign way .

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"



Go ahead and interpret it peacefully
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  #286  
Old 07.02.2015, 03:46
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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That you love to Support ISIS reveals your inner desires
After all I wrote you managed to deduct that conclusion ?

ISIS is , without a doubt, the worst cancer for the past 70 years. All I said is that, I do not agree that it is a random group formed by people thirsty for money. ISIS is an example of what you will get when you follow Islam as Mohammad did. And Mohammad is a paramount of virtue not only for ISIS but also for the moderate and peaceful muslims, don`t you agree ?
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  #287  
Old 07.02.2015, 10:40
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I guess that Obama and Cameron succeeded in brainwashing people that Islam is a religion of peace, after all....

Since you claim that I prefer a hostile interpretation, please advise how to interpret that in a more...benign way .

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 992: - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people." Humiliating and hurting non-believers not only has the blessing of Allah, but it is ordered as a means of carrying out his punishment and even "healing" the hearts of Muslims.

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"



Go ahead and interpret it peacefully

All three wordings are from the time when the Muslims had to fight to defend themselves against Pagan and against Jewish attackers. To each Topic you can easily find Surahs where Muslims are requested to be peaceful and tolerant. So that it is up to the Reader to choose the excerpts suiting his ways . Both the KKK and MLK used the two testaments of the Bible, as did the Nazis and the adherents of Apartheid. Unfortunately, Bible and Koran are like catalogues of mail-order-houses as there is something for everybody
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  #288  
Old 07.02.2015, 10:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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After all I wrote you managed to deduct that conclusion ?

ISIS is , without a doubt, the worst cancer for the past 70 years. All I said is that, I do not agree that it is a random group formed by people thirsty for money. ISIS is an example of what you will get when you follow Islam as Mohammad did. And Mohammad is a paramount of virtue not only for ISIS but also for the moderate and peaceful muslims, don`t you agree ?
No I do NOT agree with part ONE. No they do not follow Islam as Mohammed did. They simply took some Sura out of the time when the Muslims with Prophet Mohammed had to fight against Pagans and Jews attacking them. For each of the three excerpts you can easily find several places where the Muslims are requested to be tolerant and peaceful. Interesting is to read that former ISIS soldiers complain that in ISIS camps thwere is not a single Koran around. Clearly to Keep the soldiers away from counterchecking. Also interesting is to see that KKK and MLK and the Nazis and the Apartheid chaps in South Africa used the same Bible (both testaments)


Just to give you an easy example -- AL YOUM in Semitic languages (Aramaic, Arab, Hebrew) means both THE DAY and the AGE and so is used for days and for millenia.


And with part TWO I agree in so far as ISIS is horrible --- but 70 years ago was A) a time carefully chosen BY YOU, as 80 years ago would have included Hitler's reign in Nazi Germany, B) a time when Josip Vissarionovich Dshugashvili expanded his total tyranny in the USSR and brought a good part of Europe east of the Elbe Danube line under his iron control. We might mention chaps like Idi Amin, Pol Pot, PapaDoc and BabyDoc Duvalier, S.H. al-Takriti, Nureddin el-Atassi (child doctor of the devil), Nicolae Ceaucescu and others.



and here



on the official Memorial Ulrich Zwingli does have his large sword in his Hand. He unfortunately failed in conquering the lakeland of Kanton Schwyz on the Zürisee and the Canton Zug but history is history

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  #289  
Old 07.02.2015, 12:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

My last remark on this one
I find it very difficult to agree that all these verses from Quran that I had selected are a result of Muslim`s defense against the pagans and Jews. Considering the speed with which Mohammad`s caliphate expanded and the rapid islamization of the whole region, spreading from India to Northern Africa (and Spain later on), it is really hard to persuade me that Mohammad was defending from and not attaching the Jews and Pagans.
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  #290  
Old 07.02.2015, 12:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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My last remark on this one
I find it very difficult to agree that all these verses from Quran that I had selected are a result of Muslim`s defense against the pagans and Jews. Considering the speed with which Mohammad`s caliphate expanded and the rapid islamization of the whole region, spreading from India to Northern Africa (and Spain later on), it is really hard to persuade me that Mohammad was defending from and not attaching the Jews and Pagans.

Sorry, but when the Expansion really started, Prophet Mohammed was dead and the command was in the Hands of the Khaliphs Omar and Othman


THIS here Shows the spread of Islam




in Brown under Prophet Mohammed
in Orange under the four big Kaliphs
in yellow under the Ummayads

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  #291  
Old 07.02.2015, 12:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Few texts have been so ill manipulated, translated and quoted out of context, as badly as the Bible and the Koran. Apologies for long text, from
jihad.com

Misquoted Verse #4
So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by God to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam. [Noble Quran 47:4]

Once again a poor translation serves the purpose of the Islam-haters very well. Let us examine a more accurate translation before analyzing the verse:
Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers in battle, smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been God's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of God,- He will never let their deeds be lost. [Noble Quran 47:4]

So we now see some grievous mistakes made in the poor translation quoted:
The verse makes NO mention whatsoever of "killing and wounding"
"Thus are you commanded by God to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam" is a complete addition to the verse and is not found anywhere in the Quran!
That verse does not use the word Jihad at all It is very clear that the context of this verse is in battle, and when in battle the defenders of humanity should attack the unjust oppressors until they are subdued.
Professor Shahul Hamid comments on verse 47:4 by saying:
The context of this verse was when the Muslims were to fight their enemies for their very existence. After thirteen years of endurance and patience, the prophet and his companions had to leave their home town of Makkah and to emigrate to Madinah. When the people of Madinah had welcomed him there and he was accepted as a leader there, the Makkans became unhappy. They wanted to eliminate Muhammad and his religion; and so they sent their army to root out Islam. And the crucial battle took place in Badr. It was just before this that Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received the revelation from God to fight:
"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits " [Noble Quran 2:190]

This meant that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and his companions were not to start the fighting; but to defend themselves against aggressors. That was how fighting was ordained; but we must know that once we fight, we fight to defeat the aggressors, so that we can live without fear of molestation and invasion; so that we can live in peace; so that justice is done. Remember God does not command any one to start fighting; rather He permits people to fight in self defense or for the defense of those who are attacked unjustly.
The historical context again illustrates a condition of constant struggle and war. In such a condition, God reassures the believers that He is with them, and to therefore have full faith, strength and bravery in battle and not to cower from the enemy. As Abdullah Yusuf Ali writes:
When once the fight (Jihad) is entered upon, carry it out with the utmost vigour... (Yusuf Ali, The Holy Quran, Text, Translation and Commentary)
Likewise, Dr. Maher Hathout writes:
Clearly, these verses are applicable in the heat of battle and against an aggressive combating force. (Hathout, Jihad vs. Terrorism; US Multimedia Vera International, 2002, p.49)
Muslims are encouraged to restrain the enemy by capturing them, and to therefore minimize loss of life. Moreover, the verse specifically mentions that Muslims should subdue the enemies "until the war lays down its burdens", i.e. until the enemy stops fighting. Similar to this verse:
"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that hears and knows (all things)." [Noble Quran 8:61]

So the verse is very specific, in that it is limited to the context of a battle and the Muslims should only fight until the enemy is subdued or inclines towards peace i.e. they should not transgress limits. In the event of a battle, the verse guides Muslims to abstain from transgressing limits and only to fight the enemy until they are subdued or cease fighting.
Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid comments about the treatment of prisoners:
If the Muslims capture them and take them to a place that has been prepared for them, they should not harm them or torture them with beatings, depriving them of food and water, leaving them out in the sun or the cold, burning them with fire, or putting covers over their mouths, ears and eyes and putting them in cages like animals. Rather they should treat them with kindness and mercy, feed them well and encourage them to enter Islam. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to enjoin the Muslims to treat prisoners well, whereas the Romans and those who came before them the Assyrians and Pharaohs, all used to put out their prisoners' eyes with hot irons, and flay them alive, feeding their skins to dogs, such that the prisoners preferred death to life.
Therefore, Islam has laid out clear rules and regulations for Muslims to follow in the event of war, which is only used as a last resort.
Misquoted Verse #5
"There is no blame on those who are old, weak, ill, or who find no resources to spend (on Jihad), if they are sincere (in duty) to God and His Messenger." [Noble Quran 9:91]

Some non-Muslims feel that this verse is proof that Jihad is a Holy War because if it were not the elderly and others would be able to participate. Consequently, this verse is falsely used in an attempt to negate any concept of non-military Jihad. First of all, we have already established that Jihad is of many types and does not necessarily have to be purely spiritual or purely physical. There are several disabilities that prevent a person from performing a certain Jihad. Being old or weak prevents one from participating in a physical Jihad to uphold good. Nor can the weak be expected to be a soldier fighting for justice, like those who fought the Nazis in World War II. Additionally, another form of Jihad is donating money/resources to the poor and needy. Someone devoid of those resources cannot be expected to do that, as the verse mentions. With regards to ill, an example would be if someone has an illness in which they have less control over their desires, then they cannot participate in the spiritual Jihad to control one's desires, like fasting during Ramadan. One who studies the Islamic Law already knows that those who are ill do not have to fast, which is an example of spiritual Jihad. The different forms of Jihad have been described in detail in Islam and is well-known to Muslims. For example, Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid writes:
Jihad may be with the tongue (by speaking out), or with weapons (which is Qital or fighting) or with money. Each of these categories includes numerous subcategories.
And Dr. Shahid Athar writes:
The word "Jihad" means struggle or, to be specific, striving in the cause of God. Any struggle done in day-to-day life to please God can be considered jihad. One of the highest levels of jihad is to stand up to a tyrant and speak a word of truth. Control of the self from wrongdoing is also a great jihad. One of the forms of jihad is to take up arms in defense of Islam or a Muslim country when Islam is attacked. This kind of jihad has to be declared by the religious leadership or by a Muslim head of state who is following the Quran and the Sunnah.


Personally, I have no religion and no faith in any God- and would personally prefer to live in a secular world. But misuse of the Koran, or other religious texts, to demonise a whole people- for racist or political reasons, is just not acceptable imho.
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  #292  
Old 07.02.2015, 12:49
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

One of the Quran commandments:

"Come, I will rehearse what God hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom."

Who decides what is defined as "justice?"

It is my personal belief that almost any dogma has insufficiencies and ambiguities that can be misinterpreted or abused by troubled believers. Although the Catholic religion is against birth control, most Catholics practice it because common sense and knowledge tells us times have changed. The Second Amendment in the US constitution allows its citizens the rights to keep and bear arms, which has now allowed the States to become a gun-loving nation, despite its negative impact.

Perhaps the lack of defining the word "justice" has allowed troubled Muslims to justify their actions. I still cannot understand how it can ever justify killing the innocent, no matter what belief they have. I am sure that many Muslims feel the same way.

Edit: Odile and I were posting at the same time.
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  #293  
Old 08.02.2015, 18:42
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Sorry, but when the Expansion really started, Prophet Mohammed was dead and the command was in the Hands of the Khaliphs Omar and Othman


THIS here Shows the spread of Islam




in Brown under Prophet Mohammed
in Orange under the four big Kaliphs
in yellow under the Ummayads
Thus, what do a few quotes demonstrate ?
Defence or attack, it was 1400 years ago. Should we think the same about italian since there were Romans 2000 years ago?

Pretty scared by the few messages I read here about Islam
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  #294  
Old 08.02.2015, 19:06
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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ISIS is , without a doubt, the worst cancer for the past 70 years.


How did I miss this beauty of a thread?

Pls google Pol Pot, RAF, Mao, FARC and get back to us.

Ta.
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Old 08.02.2015, 19:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Absolutely not !
Islam is not a religion but a fascist ideology that seeks to dominate every aspect of the life of its followers (Islam means ''submission'' in Arabic) . The current events in Europe and the Middle East suggest that we need less Islam, not more. There are numerous verses in the Quran asking for violence, for the killing of "non-believers". Yes, there are such in the Bible, however, Jesus, an innocuous and harmless hippy sort of reverted most of them and at least gave grounds for interpreting the Bible in a non-violent way.
Islam is , on the other hand, not open to interpretation. Mohammad made it clear with his numerous conquests and murders, how he wants his followers to spread Islam. Yes, the "early Mohammad" was less violent and wrote some pleasant things, but the later verses of the "blood-thirsty Mohammad" completely supersede these earlier, peaceful, verses; theoretically and practically.
Islam is a completely different "culture" and it has absolutely no place in Europe.
Yes, there are moderate muslims, however, the moderate muslims are inspired by the same literature and role model as the radical muslims.

For these reasons, Islam is a threat and should be considered as such.

The atrocities done by ISIS are not to be regarded as "extreme". ISIS just follows what is written in the Quran. Before each execution, they carefully quote the verses that were breached. Saudi Arabia, on a state level, does precisely the same. This proves that both terrorists and "our allies" use the same source to justify their atrocities.
I read a bit more of what you said and this is even worse

I have a lot of friends which are muslims as I come from a cosmopolitan city. What you say, just demonstrates you only know Islam through TV... Maybe you should meet some of them, because most of muslims demonstrate every day that they have their place in Europe or anywhere else.
It remembers me a short discussion with a guy I barely knew when I arrived in Zurich and explained in I come from Paris "oh no I could never live in Paris, there are too many arabs"... At least, I have the impression you won't be alone in Switzerland with such opinions... Unfortunately...
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  #296  
Old 08.02.2015, 23:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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My last remark on this one
I find it very difficult to agree that all these verses from Quran that I had selected are a result of Muslim`s defense against the pagans and Jews. Considering the speed with which Mohammad`s caliphate expanded and the rapid islamization of the whole region, spreading from India to Northern Africa (and Spain later on), it is really hard to persuade me that Mohammad was defending from and not attaching the Jews and Pagans.
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THIS here Shows the spread of Islam




in Brown under Prophet Mohammed
in Orange under the four big Kaliphs
in yellow under the Ummayads
The "Golden Age" of Islam. Spread by military conquest. This is what radical Islamists are trying to reenact today.

You know, there are 200 to 300 books written about the crusade, often very critical. But are there any books about this early spread of Islam? I don't think so. Can you name 3 or more? Or is this the kind of thing they chopped people's heads off for merely trying to question and understand?

Where has Islam spread when it did not use violence to conquer? And so who instigated the Crusades again?
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  #297  
Old 08.02.2015, 23:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

No books on early Islam? Are you joking?

As for non-violent spread of Islam, try the East Indies, then later South Africa, Trinidad, the United Kingdom... and so on.
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  #298  
Old 08.02.2015, 23:33
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

No, Not kidding. Can you name 3 books that take a critical analysis of the spread of Islam from Spain to India in its "Golden Years"?

And I wasn't talking about modern immigration of Muslims either, nor of their neighbors who convert.
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  #299  
Old 08.02.2015, 23:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I could if I wasn't already in bed. I've got half a dozen books on the subject upstairs.

But that's ok because you're only taking the piss.

You had me going for a minute there, Phos.
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  #300  
Old 08.02.2015, 23:45
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Here ya go:

References[edit]
Devin De Weese, Devin A, "Islamization and Native Religion in the Golden Horde", Penn State University Press, September 1, 1994 (ISBN 0-271-01073-8).
Fred Astren, "Karaite Judaism and Historical Understanding", Univ of South Carolina Press, February 1, 2004 (ISBN 1-57003-518-0).
Tobin Siebers, "Religion and the Authority of the Past", University of Michigan Press, November 1, 1993 (ISBN 0-472-08259-0).
Jonathan Berkey, "The Formation of Islam", Cambridge University Press, January 1, 2003 (ISBN 0-521-58813-8).
Goddard, Hugh Goddard, "Christians and Muslims: from double standards to mutual understanding", Routledge (UK), October 26, 1995 (ISBN 0-7007-0364-0).
Hourani, Albert, 2002, A History of the Arab Peoples, Faber & Faber (ISBN 0-571-21591-2).
Lapidus, Ira M. 2002, A History of Islamic Societies. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Timothy M. Savage, "Europe and Islam: Crescent Waxing, Cultures Clashing", The Washington Quarterly, Summer 2004.
Stoller, Paul. "Money Has No Smell: The Africanization of New York City," Chicago: University of Chicago Press (ISBN 978-0-226-77529-6).
Eaton, Richard M. The Rise of Islam and the Bengal Frontier, 1204-1760. Berkeley: University of California Press, c1993 1993.Online version last accessed on 1 May 2007
Peter van der Veer, "Religious Nationalism: Hindus and Muslims in India", University of California Press, February 7, 1994 (ISBN 0-520-08256-7).
Kayadibi, Saim. "Ottoman Connections to the Malay World: Islam, Law and Society", Kuala Lumpur: The Other Press, 2011 (ISBN 978 983 954 1779).
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