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Old 08.02.2015, 23:47
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

No, I'm just trying to be levelled here. I think most accounts will show that Islam did in fact spread through conquest under the four Caliphs. It overran Christian centers such as Carthage and Alexandria. Do any of them mention how the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim violent aggression against Christian communities?

Interpretation of scripture and comparison of verses in the Old Testament aside, I think we can look at history for objectivity.
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Old 08.02.2015, 23:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Get out of here, Phos. Go and read some bloody books and stop wasting our time.
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  #303  
Old 09.02.2015, 06:01
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No, I'm just trying to be levelled here. I think most accounts will show that Islam did in fact spread through conquest under the four Caliphs. It overran Christian centers such as Carthage and Alexandria. Do any of them mention how the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim violent aggression against Christian communities?

Interpretation of scripture and comparison of verses in the Old Testament aside, I think we can look at history for objectivity.

Again, a major part of the expansion came about Under the Ummayads and the Abbasids




THIS here Shows the spread of Islam




in Brown under Prophet Mohammed
in Orange under the four big Kaliphs
in yellow under the Ummayads


The Orange areas were not yet really controlled, only the Ummayads (Damascus) established a serious administration, while the Abbassids (Baghdad) developed science and culture
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Old 09.02.2015, 06:06
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No, I'm just trying to be levelled here. I think most accounts will show that Islam did in fact spread through conquest under the four Caliphs. It overran Christian centers such as Carthage and Alexandria. Do any of them mention how the Crusades were a reaction to Muslim violent aggression against Christian communities?

Interpretation of scripture and comparison of verses in the Old Testament aside, I think we can look at history for objectivity.

Carthage was not so much a Christian centre, but a Phoenician (Lebanese) centre


The Crusades were an attempt to capture Jewish land for organised Roman Catholic Christianity, and to conquer the Greek Orthodox Byzantine Empire (Byzanz = Constantinople = Istanbul)
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  #305  
Old 09.02.2015, 09:46
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Again, a major part of the expansion came about Under the Ummayads and the Abbasids
How is the distinction between Mohammed, Ummayads and Abbasids significant?


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The Crusades were an attempt to capture Jewish land for organised Roman Catholic Christianity, and to conquer the Greek Orthodox Byzantine Empire (Byzanz = Constantinople = Istanbul)
The rationale provided for the Crusade was to protect Christian communities as it had experienced attacks from Muslims in their homes and during pilgrimages to Jerusalem.
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Old 09.02.2015, 10:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The rationale provided for the Crusade was to protect Christian communities as it had experienced attacks from Muslims in their homes and during pilgrimages to Jerusalem.
Then explain the 4th Crusade.


Seriously, Phos. Stop wasting everybody's time, do some actual reading of some actual books (there are dozens, probably hundreds of books on the subject of both the crusades and the expansion of Islam) and then come back to us.


If you need some recommendations, I'll have a look through my library and pick out some titles. It might take a few days to get round to it, mind.


But this idea you've got that there are no books about the early years of Islam is utterly absurd. It's like claiming there aren't any books about Indian cooking, or early British railway engines, or the cultivation of roses.
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Old 09.02.2015, 11:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Then explain the 4th Crusade.

Seriously, Phos. Stop wasting everybody's time, do some actual reading of some actual books (there are dozens, probably hundreds of books on the subject of both the crusades and the expansion of Islam) and then come back to us.

If you need some recommendations, I'll have a look through my library and pick out some titles. It might take a few days to get round to it, mind.

But this idea you've got that there are no books about the early years of Islam is utterly absurd. It's like claiming there aren't any books about Indian cooking, or early British railway engines, or the cultivation of roses.
There is a black hole of historical information on the beginnings of Islam. There was a Channel 4 documentary with Tom Holland attempting to piece it together, how it dead ends at the point where you either accept the account in full, or you don't.
http://vimeo.com/79051482

Critique is not really a practice that was encouraged with the belief system.
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  #308  
Old 09.02.2015, 11:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There is a black hole of historical information on the beginnings of Islam.

Utter bollocks.


I give up. You're doing this on purpose.
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Old 09.02.2015, 11:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The problem is not with Islam or Muslims- but with the interpretation by some.

It should however not become a Church of Switzerland, there I agree.
that could be fixed if the state would allow theological institutes with the role of educating/instructing future clerics and not everyone, from everywhere, can preach whatever they want. IMHO
As with all problems...education is the answer.
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Old 11.02.2015, 09:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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How is the distinction between Mohammed, Ummayads and Abbasids significant?



.

Even extremely significant. As Mohammed and the first Kaliphs were in Mekka, the Ummayads in Damascus and the Abbasids in Baghdad. Significant in regard to politics, culture and views.
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Old 11.02.2015, 09:14
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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that could be fixed if the state would allow theological institutes with the role of educating/instructing future clerics and not everyone, from everywhere, can preach whatever they want. IMHO
As with all problems...education is the answer.

It is on the way to be fixed. The first was François Mitterand who took the non-religious Approach and established the IMA Institut du Monde Arabe on the Seine, Other European countries started to educate local Imams, in order to break the influence of the Hanbali-Wahhabi chaps from the Saudi Kingdom. Some of These countries simply finance Imams from the Sunni-mainstream-Schools (Maliki/Hanafi/Shafi'i)
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Old 11.02.2015, 09:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Phos:

How can I see when I refuse to look?
How can I hear when I refuse to listen?
How can I feel when I refuse to touch?
How can I learn when I think I know everything?
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Old 11.02.2015, 10:01
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It is on the way to be fixed. The first was François Mitterand who took the non-religious Approach and established the IMA Institut du Monde Arabe on the Seine, Other European countries started to educate local Imams, in order to break the influence of the Hanbali-Wahhabi chaps from the Saudi Kingdom. Some of These countries simply finance Imams from the Sunni-mainstream-Schools (Maliki/Hanafi/Shafi'i)
That's good. On the other hand, everyone who visited Iran was enchanted by this country, it's a paradise for those who're passionate about archeology and history, but it's not only that - I heard the people are among the most hospitable and kindest lot. And they're not mainstream Sunni.
Or those of us who know people from Azerbaijan also know very well religion is not an issue for them. What I'm trying to say it's that not only mainstream sunni schools are to be considered.
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Old 11.02.2015, 15:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Again, a major part of the expansion came about Under the Ummayads and the Abbasids




THIS here Shows the spread of Islam




in Brown under Prophet Mohammed
in Orange under the four big Kaliphs
in yellow under the Ummayads


The Orange areas were not yet really controlled, only the Ummayads (Damascus) established a serious administration, while the Abbassids (Baghdad) developed science and culture
Just t clarify, that graphic depicts the expansion of the Caliphate, not the expansion of Islam as a whole. While it did spread islam, the caliphate was not the only vehicle through which islam spread to distant lands.
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  #315  
Old 11.02.2015, 18:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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That's good. On the other hand, everyone who visited Iran was enchanted by this country, it's a paradise for those who're passionate about archeology and history, but it's not only that - I heard the people are among the most hospitable and kindest lot. And they're not mainstream Sunni.
Or those of us who know people from Azerbaijan also know very well religion is not an issue for them. What I'm trying to say it's that not only mainstream sunni schools are to be considered.
Just as the Methodists and the Old-Catholic are in different churches, the Shi'ite are a different community. And in many countries, the Iranians not only are numerous but quite wealthy

In the London of 72 some of my best schoolfriends were Iranians, in those days in fear of the omnipresent SAVAK

You mention Azerbaijan, Most of them, both in Iranian Azerbaijan and in the Republic of A. are Shi'ites. Example -- the Grand Ayatollah Khamenei, but also a good part of the Iranian generals. The Azeris so would of course join the Shi'ite "church"
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  #316  
Old 11.02.2015, 22:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Phos:

How can I see when I refuse to look?
How can I hear when I refuse to listen?
How can I feel when I refuse to touch?
How can I learn when I think I know everything?
Olygirl, I hope you're not trying to play 50 Shades of Grey with me, or something like that.
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Old 14.02.2015, 06:18
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There is a black hole of historical information on the beginnings of Islam. There was a Channel 4 documentary with Tom Holland attempting to piece it together, how it dead ends at the point where you either accept the account in full, or you don't.
http://vimeo.com/79051482

Critique is not really a practice that was encouraged with the belief system.

There is A LOT of info about the beginning of Islam, available in Arabic, Italian, German, French, English and all the other languages


For modern info about the Topic I recommend the books of famous (passed away 2014) Peter SCholl-Latour, the unforgettable Doyen of German international journalism


But you may also turn to ARTE-TV and the CARTES OUVERTES / MIT OFFENEN KARTEN both in German and French

Last edited by Wollishofener; 14.02.2015 at 13:35.
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Old 14.02.2015, 09:02
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Suggested reading.

Origins:

Arberry, Arthur J. (tr.) The Koran (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1983) [ISBN 0-19-281628-4].
Cook, Michael Muhammad (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1983) [ISBN 0-19-287605-8].
Rippin, Andrew Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, volume 1: The Formative Period (London: Routledge, 1990) [ISBN 0-415-0419-3].
Waines, David An Introduction to Islam (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-521-42929-3].

Early Divisions and Theology

Fakhry, Majid A Short Introduction to Islamic Philosophy, Theology and Mysticism (Oxford: Oneworld, 1997) [ISBN 1-85168-134-5].
Kennedy, Hugh The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates: The Islamic Near East from the Sixth to the Eleventh Century (London: Longman, 1986) [ISBN 0-582-49313-7].
Rippin, Andrew Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, volume 1: The Formative Period (London: Routledge, 1990) [ISBN 0-415-0419-3].
Waines, David An Introduction to Islam (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-521-42929-3].
Watt, William Montgomery Islamic Philosophy and Theology (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-7486-0749-8].
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Old 14.02.2015, 13:51
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Suggested reading.

Origins:

Arberry, Arthur J. (tr.) The Koran (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1983) [ISBN 0-19-281628-4].
Cook, Michael Muhammad (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1983) [ISBN 0-19-287605-8].
Rippin, Andrew Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, volume 1: The Formative Period (London: Routledge, 1990) [ISBN 0-415-0419-3].
Waines, David An Introduction to Islam (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-521-42929-3].

Early Divisions and Theology

Fakhry, Majid A Short Introduction to Islamic Philosophy, Theology and Mysticism (Oxford: Oneworld, 1997) [ISBN 1-85168-134-5].
Kennedy, Hugh The Prophet and the Age of the Caliphates: The Islamic Near East from the Sixth to the Eleventh Century (London: Longman, 1986) [ISBN 0-582-49313-7].
Rippin, Andrew Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices, volume 1: The Formative Period (London: Routledge, 1990) [ISBN 0-415-0419-3].
Waines, David An Introduction to Islam (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-521-42929-3].
Watt, William Montgomery Islamic Philosophy and Theology (Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1995) [ISBN 0-7486-0749-8].

Many thanks.


And here the link to the leading bibliotheque in Zürich with books in German and English and many other languages
http://www.zb.uzh.ch/








I above had to correct my naming the ARTE Thing as it is CARTES OUVERTES and not TABLES

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  #320  
Old 14.02.2015, 14:14
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

You're wasting your time. Phos isn't remotely interested in learning anything about this subject. He's been playing the same track for the last eight years, and shows no sign of wishing to change it.

Just think of him as the lairy drunk who keeps putting Danny Boy on the jukebox all evening. Best thing to do is let him be. Nobody wants a bottle of brown ale in the jugular...
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