Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Living in Switzerland > Swiss politics/news
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:05
Tom1234's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Kanton Luzern
Posts: 10,065
Groaned at 267 Times in 211 Posts
Thanked 14,179 Times in 5,757 Posts
Tom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond reputeTom1234 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post

Therefore the concept of religion should be a private affair, after all it should only concern the individual who practices it or discovers it for themselves. It should not be forced on people in any capacity, be it through architecture, exclusive clothing, crusades, barbarity etc.
But would all the happy-clappy gospel singers do? You can't have a choir of one - especially if your singing's a bit out of tune.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:11
JBZ86's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Zurich and various mountains
Posts: 3,705
Groaned at 536 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 4,257 Times in 1,943 Posts
JBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
But would all the happy-clappy gospel singers do? You can't have a choir of one - especially if your singing's a bit out of tune.
Not one religious book proclaims the gods even like music.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:25
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Not one religious book proclaims the gods even like music.
Several Native American religions do.

Last edited by amogles; 12.01.2015 at 13:40.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank amogles for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:26
JBZ86's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Zurich and various mountains
Posts: 3,705
Groaned at 536 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 4,257 Times in 1,943 Posts
JBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond reputeJBZ86 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Several Native American religions do.
I stand corrected.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank JBZ86 for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:27
22 yards's Avatar
Only in moderation
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Basel-Land
Posts: 6,611
Groaned at 188 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 10,975 Times in 4,534 Posts
22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute22 yards has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
How is the church tax levied against businesses or other 'juristische Personen'?

Does a business pay the tax equally split among all state churches?
Church tax is voluntary, so firstly, a business would have to want to pay the tax. Then, it would have to declare its religion, which is nonsensical -- how can a business practise a religion? Therefore, I'd say that businesses don't pay church tax. (That's based on my completely non-existent knowledge of church tax in Switzerland.)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,381
Groaned at 369 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 22,387 Times in 10,074 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
The challenge is that there is no "one" Islam. People from Turkey, Balkans, Pakistan, North Africa, Middle East have different flavors of islam even within Sunni or Shia communities.
Exactly the same for Christianity, both in Switzerland and all over the world.
Here in Neuchâtel, and I believe Geneva, Church taxes are totally voluntary- and only 3 Christian Churches are recognized to benefit from them, Roman Catholic, Christian Catholic (very similar to Anglican) and Reformed Protestant. There are of course a whole array of other Christian groups/'evangelical' (sects) Churches (I can think of about 6 just in our valley) that do not receive any money. One of them run a pizzeria-restaurant to cover their expenses (including sales of alcohol that they ban for their members). Of course the great majority of their leaders/preachers are not qualified and have not officially studied religion- same for the Salvation Army- and some are 'crackpots' in one way or another, whilst others are not. Both Catholic and Reformed Church have volunteer lay preachers who have not officially studied theology- and who officiate in all sorts of situations, as they have had to significantly cut down number of staff since Church Tax became optional (as said before, despite many chosing not to pay the tax but still expecting the Church to serve their need, bereavement, funerals, weddings and social care of one kind or another).

The local synagogue also receives their due, I think (will check) as there is quite a significant Jewish community and Synagogue in La Chaux-de-Fonds.

Not sure about the question in OP- will have to ponder. But if it does go ahead (and as said timing is not good to say the least!)- just like for Christian Churches, it will have to be for recognized and official Mosques.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:38
amogles's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 8,411
Groaned at 141 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 14,611 Times in 6,217 Posts
amogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond reputeamogles has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Exactly the same for Christianity, both in Switzerland and all over the world.
Here in Neuchâtel, and I believe Geneva, Church taxes are totally voluntary- and only 3 Christian Churches are recognized to benefit from them, Roman Catholic, Christian Catholic (very similar to Anglican) and Reformed Protestant. There are of course a whole array of other Christian groups/'evangelical' (sects) Churches (I can think of about 6 just in our valley) that do not receive any money. One of them run a pizzeria-restaurant to cover their expenses (including sales of alcohol that they ban for their members). Of course the great majority of their leaders/preachers are not qualified and have not officially studied religion- same for the Salvation Army- and some are 'crackpots' in one way or another, whilst others are not. Both Catholic and Reformed Church have volunteer lay preachers who have not officially studied theology- and who officiate in all sorts of situations, as they have had to significantly cut down number of staff since Church Tax became optional (as said before, despite many chosing not to pay the tax but still expecting the Church to serve their need, bereavement, funerals, weddings and social care of one kind or another).

The local synagogue also receives their due, I think (will check) as there is quite a significant Jewish community and Synagogue in La Chaux-de-Fonds.

Not sure about the question in OP- will have to ponder. But if it does go ahead (and as said timing is not good to say the least!)- just like for Christian Churches, it will have to be for recognized and official Mosques.
In France it is even more complicated. Officially Church and State are separated but there are a certian number of church ministers receiving state salaries. These are the chaplians to the armed forces and including the main Christian denominations as well as Muslims and Jews. Also in Alsace Lorraine there are certain vestiges of German law meaning that there are certain elements of state support available that churches in other regions don't qualify for.

Furthermore, all church buildings that existed prior to the revolution were ofiicially confiscated as part of the revolution but many are placed at the disposal of religious groups by the state with the groups who use them also being responsible for maintenance, However, the Church does not provide or create new places of worship so all those created since the revolution were payed for and are owned by the religious communities. There is one Church in Paris that was adversely occupied by a fundamentalist Catholic group who just marched into the church one day and started running it and apparently the courts decided the occupation was legal and told the previous community, sorry, go and find some other place to pray.

So its all a bit strange and a bit complicated.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:41
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 7,523
Groaned at 164 Times in 139 Posts
Thanked 8,549 Times in 4,685 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
the funny thing is that all different flavours of christianity are recognized while there would be only one islamic church and no sunni, shia, sufi etc.
About "funny thing is that all different flavours of christianity are recognized", varies by Kanton and not universally true.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank marton for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 12.01.2015, 13:59
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,067
Groaned at 77 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 5,294 Times in 2,060 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Church tax is voluntary, so firstly, a business would have to want to pay the tax. Then, it would have to declare its religion, which is nonsensical -- how can a business practise a religion? Therefore, I'd say that businesses don't pay church tax. (That's based on my completely non-existent knowledge of church tax in Switzerland.)
Businesses do pay church tax and by default the selected church is the one that is the largest in the canton (catholic on Valais and Fribourg etc...).
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:11
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,381
Groaned at 369 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 22,387 Times in 10,074 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

amogles, one of the other 'complications' in France, is that, despite the country being officially secular- it has 1000s of semi private and very cheap Catholic schools, part funded by the State, which are too often used to 'segregate' 'French' children, from other 'French' children (2nd, 3rd generation arabs from ex North African French colonies) and immigrants. Other communities are not allowed to have their own religious based schools. Of course many of the children who attend are from families who are cultural Catholics, and non-believers or followers.
At State and also Commune/Gemeinde level, tax payers are expected to pay for the subsidies to those private Catholic schools, with smaller classes, etc, be those tax payers be atheist or Muslims, or anything else. A bit of a scandal in my book, for a State that prones laïcity in all things.

Many on the left in France say wearing a scarf (foulard)- providing it allows for the face to be properly shown- should be allowed- as excluding girl students who are excellent scholars with impeccable behaviour/attitude, makes no sense- and is only to appease extreme political secularists.

Last edited by Odile; 12.01.2015 at 14:38.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:18
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: geneve
Posts: 737
Groaned at 328 Times in 142 Posts
Thanked 1,374 Times in 546 Posts
idefix has earned the respect of manyidefix has earned the respect of manyidefix has earned the respect of many
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Is the Christian church recognized church in the other Islamic states or countries with predominantly Muslim people?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank idefix for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:19
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,067
Groaned at 77 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 5,294 Times in 2,060 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Is the Christian church recognized church in the other Islamic states or countries with predominantly Muslim people?
yes at least in examples I know of: Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:24
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: SZ
Posts: 9,275
Groaned at 215 Times in 178 Posts
Thanked 16,494 Times in 6,021 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Syria
The part where the dictator uses poison gas or the one with the islamists beheading even "wrong" Muslims?

Seriously - you'd be in serious danger in half that country list if you are openly Christian... something that is not true vice versa.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:25
MrVertigo's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 3,067
Groaned at 77 Times in 65 Posts
Thanked 5,294 Times in 2,060 Posts
MrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond reputeMrVertigo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
The part where the dictator uses poison gas or the one with the islamists beheading even "wrong" Muslims?

Seriously - you'd be in serious danger in half that country list if you are openly Christian... something that is not true vice versa.
Syria: I am not talking about the situation right NOW. The christian community has been living for many decades in Syria with full recognition and protection from the Assad dictators.

There are local christian communities in all those countries with churches, priests and monks sent by the pope.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank MrVertigo for this useful post:
  #35  
Old 12.01.2015, 14:26
Phos's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: ZRH
Posts: 7,177
Groaned at 462 Times in 350 Posts
Thanked 9,364 Times in 4,926 Posts
Phos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond reputePhos has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Entering a new religion into the state recognised list would result in a huge emotional backlash of wrath fueled by fright and lack of knowledge. Would it be worth going down that road at the present time? Again, I don't know.
Simple, put it up for a referendum and find out. Or were you looking to start yet another thread full of platitudes about religious persecution? Enough, no?
Reply With Quote
This user groans at Phos for this post:
  #36  
Old 12.01.2015, 15:33
miniMia's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: romandie
Posts: 8,865
Groaned at 86 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 7,411 Times in 3,740 Posts
miniMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond reputeminiMia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
Hello,
Well this is my first post ever!
I really do like and agree 100% with what MrVertigo mentioned!
MrVertigo has summerized the situation and the answer! the swiss authorities has to set some rules and requirements in order to organize all imam's catagories.
Why? For 5% of the population? Seems like a lot of work.

Not all different flavors of Christianity nor Judaism are recognized. Just lump all of in together or get rid of all of them.



Quote:
View Post
Church tax is voluntary, so firstly, a business would have to want to pay the tax. ...
Not in Vaud. A part of our taxes by default will go to some religious thing or another. There is no opting in and no opting out!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12.01.2015, 15:37
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 19,381
Groaned at 369 Times in 276 Posts
Thanked 22,387 Times in 10,074 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Yes... and no. You can't opt out in Vaud, but you can get your Church tax reimbursed to you if you go through the proper process- as it was successfully challenged in the Law Courts. Sorry, link in French only:

Certains cantons ne conaissent pas l’impôt ecclesiastique séparé. Vous le payez donc comme partie de vos impôts cantonaux et communaux.
Suite à une intervention de notre défunt collègue Jean Galland au Tribunal fédéral, du moins la part communale des impôts ecclésiastiques peut être demandée en remboursement.
La Constitution vaudoise ne prévoit pas de séparation entre l’Etat et l’Eglise, ce qui veut dire que chaque contribuable voit ainsi une part des ses impôts cantonaux et communaux affectés aux Eglises reconnues :
Eglise évangélique réformée, et Eglise catholique romaine, communauté d’intérêts publics israélites.

Reboursement pour les gens sans confession

Suite à une intervention de notre défunt collègue Galland au Tribunal fédéral (AFT 99 Ia 739), du moins la part communale peut être demandée en remboursement aux conditions suivantes :
  • Les impôts cantonaux et communaux de l’année en question doivent être entièrement payés.
  • Le contribuable envoie alors une lettre à la municipalité de sa commune de résidence, dans laquelle il affirme ne faire partie d’aucune des deux Eglises consacrées, et demande le remboursement de la part communale dévolue au culte des deux églises consacrées pour l’année en question.
Le contribuable joint la preuve du paiement à sa demande (facultatif), les greffes communaux peuvent se charger des recherches, mais contre émolument !
La commune peut ensuite procéder au remboursement.
Cependant comme il est de bon ton de persécuter les mécréants, la lettre de la commune portera souvent la mention suivante :
« Etant donné la modicité de la somme, il ne sera pas procédé à un remboursement postal ou bancaire. »

In short, you have to pay as part of your taxes- but you can re-claim if you belong to another Church or are 'confessionless' (atheist/agnostic).

Last edited by Odile; 12.01.2015 at 16:28.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 12.01.2015, 15:45
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 8,988
Groaned at 140 Times in 122 Posts
Thanked 12,275 Times in 5,017 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Islam cannot become a recognised church, since it isn't a church. The word "church" is inextricably linked to Christianity. Muslims don't meet in church, they don't have a church and they aren't a church. The question should be whether Islam should be a Swiss state religion. The answer to that is no.

Religious expression that is not Catholic nor Reformed (plus a few others in various Cantons) is entirely free. You can rent premises, or buy your own. You can worship, gather and/or preach in public (subject to some quite correct restrictions) if you want to. There's very little that you can do as part of the state church that you can't do privately.

There is no need for any religion to be part of the state.
__________________
In accordance with Political Correctness guidelines, I've checked my privileges and come to the conclusion that I'm awesome.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 12.01.2015, 15:51
Corbets's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zug, CH
Posts: 2,840
Groaned at 155 Times in 111 Posts
Thanked 5,382 Times in 1,839 Posts
Corbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond reputeCorbets has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Quote:
View Post
IThere's very little that you can do as part of the state church that you can't do privately.
Except ensure funding by getting the state to collect your dues for you.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Corbets for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 12.01.2015, 15:57
JonnyLaRock!'s Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 498
Groaned at 116 Times in 58 Posts
Thanked 543 Times in 262 Posts
JonnyLaRock! has a reputation beyond reputeJonnyLaRock! has a reputation beyond reputeJonnyLaRock! has a reputation beyond reputeJonnyLaRock! has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

If religion in general is believed not to exist then it will cease to exist in its entirety, the world works perfectly well without it (to paraphrase LaPlace).

Everyone must continue clapping or Tinkerbell will die... Religion like elitism is a concept that is illusory it's not real unless we make it real.

we spent 500 years coping with radical Christianity, are we really going to supplant the gap of a dead religion with a living breathing monstrous replica?
Reply With Quote
The following 6 users would like to thank JonnyLaRock! for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
religion, state church




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'Independent' / 'State' Church Dore_84 Daily life 1 27.10.2013 22:37
Is the British BA Degree recognized in Switzerland ? andy.swiss Employment 12 18.06.2010 16:08
Islam and Ron Paul: Should Switzerland ban green cheese from Glarus, oder? Dougal's Breakfast General off-topic 4 13.11.2009 00:07
Should English be the 5th language of Switzerland? vwild1 Swiss politics/news 84 12.03.2009 15:54
Should Switzerland stay out of the EU? the_old_vase Swiss politics/news 10 18.02.2007 22:08


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0