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Old 12.01.2015, 16:10
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Church tax is voluntary, so firstly, a business would have to want to pay the tax. Then, it would have to declare its religion, which is nonsensical -- how can a business practise a religion? Therefore, I'd say that businesses don't pay church tax. (That's based on my completely non-existent knowledge of church tax in Switzerland.)
In my book a "voluntary tax" is an oxymoron. Though called tax for GE and NE, too, that's not what it is as the church in these two cantons has no priviledged position. As a consequence the "tax" is in akin to a club membership fee.
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  #42  
Old 12.01.2015, 16:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Is the Christian church recognized church in the other Islamic states or countries with predominantly Muslim people?
In my home country, yes. But we don't have church tax there. Every recognised religion (now 5 religions) should independently organise its own funding.
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  #43  
Old 12.01.2015, 16:26
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Islam cannot become a recognised church, since it isn't a church. The word "church" is inextricably linked to Christianity. Muslims don't meet in church, they don't have a church and they aren't a church. The question should be whether Islam should be a Swiss state religion. The answer to that is no.

Religious expression that is not Catholic nor Reformed (plus a few others in various Cantons) is entirely free.
No that is not correct, it depends on the Canton. Some K/Cantons accept the Christian Catholic Church (as said, akin to Anglican)- as Neuchâtel does. And Vaud accepts the Jewish congregation/Synagogue- how is that a 'Church', any more than a Mosque?

Edit- Phos do you ever read other peoples' posts?

Last edited by Odile; 12.01.2015 at 16:59.
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Old 12.01.2015, 16:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Except ensure funding by getting the state to collect your dues for you.
But that's not a big deal is it? Those outside of the state system seem to be functioning quite ok without state support.

And if they can't they fall by the wayside which can only be a good thing.
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Old 12.01.2015, 16:39
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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But that's not a big deal is it? Those outside of the state system seem to be functioning quite ok without state support.

And if they can't they fall by the wayside which can only be a good thing.
So a religion that poor refugees belong to should disappear as the refugees can't pay for the upkeep of a building in which to worship

Your form of Christianity which you keep bringing to this forum seems so wrong on so many levels. Now religion is all about how rich the 'believers' are.

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  #46  
Old 12.01.2015, 16:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Actually, plenty of those small Churches do survive without the subsidies (tax) - they mainly use private homes, or rent a room in a restaurant, or from the owners of the previous Vicarages that had to be sold, or from Council, etc. Some of the new owners actually allow them to use the room for free. Near here one has bought a small garage that went bankrupt, etc. But I agree with Tom.

As said before, the larger Churches here (Reformed and Catholic) take on the provision of Social Care in lots and lots of guises- in their own buildings- and with their own staff, for the elderly, the handicapped, the frail, the unemployed, the lonely and the sick, drug addicts and alcoholics, etc. They visit hospitals and old peoples' homes, institutions for people with mental illness/problems, asylum seekers, etc, and individuals in their own homes. They organise volunteers to visit people in need, read for those who can't any more, take people to doctor's and hospital (quite a long way away)- organise luncheons on a regular basis for the elderly, and so much more.

Now, as an atheist- I'd agree totally that these services would be preferably delivered by secular professionals and volunteers organised and paid by the local Government- escpecially as Church tax payers, now voluntary, do not cover costs- but who am I to say- and how long would it be to totally reorganise such- and of course increase taxes to cover? As often, people on EF (or any internet Forum) come up with statements which are too often not based on the reality on the ground. Who will do the above work and look after the above groups- if not the Churches? And how long would that be to implement, and how will it be paid for. Actually, looking at it this way, the local Churches do provide excelllent value for money- I might even begin to pay my tax now!!! (this is a ... joke ok- I don't play golf, so don't belong to a golf club- same here).

Last edited by Odile; 12.01.2015 at 17:26.
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  #47  
Old 12.01.2015, 16:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I wouldn't mind Islamic communities being recognized by the state if it can be accredited as being non-violent, is transparent, tracks its members and can be held accountable for the actions taken by its members.

Church taxes in Switzerland has social and historical context. Social services are dispensed through them, and the taxation is only for convenience. It is not a compulsive tax. There are only two recognized churches; catholicism and reformed. Denominations fall in between these two are not state sponsored and financed independently.

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Actually, looking at it this way, the local Churches do provide excelllent value for money- I might even begin to pay my tax now!!!
Like your friend who you claimed was forced into Catholicism, whereas she/he only really converted for a free burial plot. A different notion of planning for eternity.
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  #48  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:13
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Swiss Muslims as a whole are not organized. Just a lot of different groups, and nobody knows what they are preaching and so on. A few of those groups are recognized on a cantonal level. As long as they don't speak with one voice and so on it's impossible to recognize them nationwide.
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  #49  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It's not promotion of atheism, it's recognition that people's religious and spiritual beliefs are very diverse and their attachment to said beliefs can evoke great emotion which can result in something all religions claim to despise i.e murder.

Therefore the concept of religion should be a private affair, after all it should only concern the individual who practices it or discovers it for themselves. It should not be forced on people in any capacity, be it through architecture, exclusive clothing, crusades, barbarity etc.

Edit: addressing atheism ideology point, yes, the same applies. The promotion of atheism is the direct result of the intrusion of religion and thus if religion becomes less intrusive atheism does not rear it's head to combat it.
I think it's impossible to eradicate religion from the planet without first seriously infringing upon the beliefs of a large percentage of the population as well as the "freedom of speech" in general.

So you're saying that the freedom of speech shouldn't be extended to the religious?

Religion will always exist in the psyche of man, in some form or another. It's man's way of reconciling his helplessness against nature.* If it isn't Christ or Allah, etc. that we're worshiping, we will devise something to put in its place.

*A reference to Freud's "The Future of an Illusion."
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  #50  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:34
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I think it's impossible to eradicate religion from the planet without first seriously infringing upon the beliefs of a large percentage of the population as well as the "freedom of speech" in general.

So you're saying that the freedom of speech shouldn't be extended to the religious?

Religion will always exist in the psyche of man, in some form or another. It's man's way of reconciling his helplessness against nature.* If it isn't Christ or Allah, etc. that we're worshiping, we will devise something to put in its place.

*A reference to Freud's "The Future of an Illusion."
Religion need not be eradicated, just not made public, unwillingly forced on people, allowed to congregate in buildings where hate speech can be allowed to fester and develop.

I am not advocating religious people be afforded different rights to the rest but to keep their opinions on religion to their personal space and focus that religious belief on themselves only. The same goes for non believers. Though without religious intrusion I doubt non believers will find much to mock.
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  #51  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:51
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Why would anyone deliberately want to pay more taxes?
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  #52  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Why would anyone deliberately want to pay more taxes?
Ask the folks who open the door to the Billag man?
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  #53  
Old 12.01.2015, 17:57
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It is not a compulsive tax.
compulsive [kuh m-puhl-siv]: pertaining to a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, especially one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

Yep, sounds like all taxes to me.
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Old 12.01.2015, 18:05
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Difference between Billag and church taxes is simple. For Swiss TV you have to pay anyway even if you don't watch it. So it's somehow a general tax. On the other side you can always leave your church and won't pay anymore.
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Old 12.01.2015, 18:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Difference between Billag and church taxes is simple. For Swiss TV you have to pay anyway even if you don't watch it. So it's somehow a general tax. On the other side you can always leave your church and won't pay anymore.
ahem,

There are many things you can do to not have to pay Billag. So both are voluntary and thus essentially comparable.

The big difference is that if you don't pay church tax, the church probably won't be sending inspectors to spy on you and to seek out evidence that you haven't been praying behing closed doors or got a hymnal hidden in your bedroom or posesss an internet connection capable of downloading pictures of the pope.

Also, the money is collected by the taxman and not by some loony setup that uses deranged grumpy grandpas to cold call you after hours.

So church tax seems more legit to me.
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Old 12.01.2015, 18:33
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The local synagogue also receives their due, I think (will check) as there is quite a significant Jewish community and Synagogue in La Chaux-de-Fonds.
Quite a significant -- that's hilarious. They don't even have enough people to hold services regularly in the synagogue. It was ONCE a significant community, certainly 'aint anymore. Your info is about 50 years out of date.

Anyhoo, I find the whole church tax thing ridiculous, but if that's how things are done here and if Muslims could organise themselves into a unified voice to achieve that status and they want it, why shouldn't they be recognised? The Jewish community is...
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  #57  
Old 12.01.2015, 18:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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ahem,

There are many things you can do to not have to pay Billag...
What exactly, if you permanently live here?
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Old 12.01.2015, 18:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Difference between Billag and church taxes is simple. For Swiss TV you have to pay anyway even if you don't watch it. So it's somehow a general tax. On the other side you can always leave your church and won't pay anymore.
No you don't need to pay. It's actually very much like a church tax.

You put a lot of time into into it and it provides a bit of comfort, perhaps guidance, a bit of sexual scandal (dramas) lots of glitz for the Catholics (strictly come dancing), a bit of singing along (x-factor), thought-provoking stuff (Panorama) and lots of stuff that really has got nothing to do with reality (Doctor Who or a UKIP political broadcast)*

* Apologies for the UK slant.
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Old 13.01.2015, 00:18
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...erden-21918085

More and more Muslims in Switzerland would like to see their church recognised as a State Church by the Swiss government.

Advantages:
- taxes
- more state control over religious education

Disadvantages:
- Culture and identity shock for Christianity-based Switzerland
- Possibility of feeling threatened by the Muslim church

America has tried to separate the state from religion but religion still plays an important role in their politics.

Switzerland has never tried to separate the state from religion. However, the Swiss still consider themselves Christian-based, even though the church has little meaning in their lives.

It's an interesting and very emotional concept.

20 Minutes addressed this today in the above mentioned link. There were voices for much for such a discussion but others found it to be the wrong time to address such an issue.

My opinion: I honestly don't know.

Religion is about peace and love. Extremists are about egos and power. In 1291, Switzerland fought to become independent from the Hapsburgs and from any other dominant reigning government. For centuries, the idea of Catholics and Protestants living in peace together in Switzerland was marred by battles and tabus. Today, the tabus have been lifted and there is peace. The dominant role of the church has been weakened in every canton through a high standard of living and education.

Entering a new religion into the state recognised list would result in a huge emotional backlash of wrath fueled by fright and lack of knowledge. Would it be worth going down that road at the present time? Again, I don't know.

Looking forward to your opinions.

Under consideration is to give "official status" to the
Sunni (Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i) Islam
Greek Orthodox Church
Israelitische Kultusgemeinde
-
In the Canton of Zürich the Alt-Katolische/Christ-Katholische Kirche already IS a Landeskirche

Last edited by Wollishofener; 13.01.2015 at 00:38.
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Old 13.01.2015, 12:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No you don't need to pay. It's actually very much like a church tax.
If you don't pay your Billag bill, they will send you some reminders and the next step will be the Betreibungsamt/enforcement office.

You can decide to leave the catholic/protestant church in Switzerland, and you won't have to pay church taxes anymore.
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