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Old 13.01.2015, 13:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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If you don't pay your Billag bill, they will send you some reminders and the next step will be the Betreibungsamt/enforcement office.

You can decide to leave the catholic/protestant church in Switzerland, and you won't have to pay church taxes anymore.
It's the same. If you don't have a TV or subscribe to any Internet TV services then you don't need to pay for Billag but I concede that most people need to pay for the Radio portion.

Did you not understand the rules for Billag? There's a thread all about it on here.
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Old 13.01.2015, 13:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It's the same. If you don't have a TV or subscribe to any Internet TV services then you don't need to pay for Billag but I concede that most people need to pay for the Radio portion.

Did you not understand the rules for Billag? There's a thread all about it on here.
There's no difference between radio/tv. You have a smartphone, a tablet that allows you to receive some tv/radio? Then you have to pay anyway.

You don't want to pay? In this case you would have to prove you have no internet, sealed the TV access in your appartment and even don't own a smartphone. Good luck.
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Old 13.01.2015, 13:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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There's no difference between radio/tv. You have a smartphone, a tablet that allows you to receive some tv/radio? Then you have to pay anyway.

You don't want to pay? In this case you would have to prove you have no internet, sealed the TV access in your appartment and even don't own a smartphone. Good luck.
No. You don't need to prove this. You need to assert it. There is a difference.

If you want to leave the Catholic Church, you don't need to prove you don't believe in God. They will take your word for it.
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Old 13.01.2015, 13:49
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Well, okay, that's interesting...

So some of you folks say you got the usual Billag bill. Next you just wrote a mail to Billag declaring you don't watch TV, don't have internet and don't own a smartphone.

(Okay, you didn't write a mail because that proves you use the internet.)

And their response simply was: Ah, okay, sorry we bothered you? That's amazing. Can you give me some further details, please?

Ah, okay, I guess I see the problem. In general every household has to pay Billag fees, but of course not every individual.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 13.01.2015 at 14:39. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #65  
Old 13.01.2015, 14:11
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Well, okay, that's interesting...

So some of you folks say you got the usual Billag bill. Next you just wrote a mail to Billag declaring you don't watch TV, don't have internet and don't own a smartphone.

(Okay, you didn't write a mail because that proves you use the internet.)

And their response simply was: Ah, okay, sorry we bothered you? That's amazing. Can you give me some further details, please?
Here
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Old 13.01.2015, 14:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Can we please not drag this off-topic into Billag? We have threads for that.

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...how can a business practise a religion?
Slightly OT but just for context on how some people think. In the U.S. some business owners have filed lawsuits regarding the birth control provisions in the Affordable Care Act. The idea being (apparently?) that these businesses are Christian, and should not be forced to provide something for employees that is against their religion. How the owner(s) being Christian equates to a whole business practicing it is still beyond me, but there you go.

The only exception I can think of are hospitals that are owned by a church. I was treated at a Catholic hospital once, and they warned me up front if I take birth control that I need to bring my own medicine for the duration of the stay. They don't prohibit you from taking it, but you have to bring your own as they do not stock birth control whatsoever.

Anywho, back on-topic...

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[Islam as a whole is] not organized.
FTFY. At least not in the same sense as Christianity. There's no infallible pope, no organized series of bishops or other higher-ups. Anyone who studies and practices the five pillars faithfully can become an Imam. The idea is that it's a religion for all the people. I don't see how you can recognize it for tax purposes when there's no central authority to direct allocations of tax money, etc.
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  #67  
Old 13.01.2015, 15:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Well, okay, that's interesting...

So some of you folks say you got the usual Billag bill. Next you just wrote a mail to Billag declaring you don't watch TV, don't have internet and don't own a smartphone.

(Okay, you didn't write a mail because that proves you use the internet.)

And their response simply was: Ah, okay, sorry we bothered you? That's amazing. Can you give me some further details, please?
Basically, and in a nutshell, that's how it works. It helps of course if the letter is registered.

Better still is to not sign up in the first place. Once they've got you by the toe they don't give up quickly, but eventually they will decide you're not worth the effort. But if you stay off their radar they won't have the same level of investment. Same as with any telemarketing agency really. The less you cooperate the quicker they understand that you aren't part of the demographic.

Of course if you declare that and it turns out you were lying, you can get done for fraud. So make sure what you claim is true.
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Old 13.01.2015, 15:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Slightly OT but just for context on how some people think. In the U.S. some business owners have filed lawsuits regarding the birth control provisions in the Affordable Care Act. The idea being (apparently?) that these businesses are Christian, and should not be forced to provide something for employees that is against their religion. How the owner(s) being Christian equates to a whole business practicing it is still beyond me, but there you go.
I don't see what's wrong with declaring your business to be religious. Nobody is forced to buy stuff in your shop and nobody is forced to work for you. There are shops for example that don't open on Sundays because of religious reasons. This is not fundamentally differnet to say, a company refusing to manufacture weapons or alcohol for reasons of religion, ethics or conscience. So practicising religious principles in the workplace seems OK. Of more interest are potential further repercussions. For example some religious groups oppose organ donations. Can that exempt tham from providing the relevent services in their healthcare packages? These are ultimately the problems of a multicultural society in which different values and different perceptions of what is right and wrong co-exist. Just where does the right of opting out stop?


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FTFY. At least not in the same sense as Christianity. There's no infallible pope, no organized series of bishops or other higher-ups. Anyone who studies and practices the five pillars faithfully can become an Imam. The idea is that it's a religion for all the people. I don't see how you can recognize it for tax purposes when there's no central authority to direct allocations of tax money, etc.
This does exist in Christianity too. For example many free churches have no organized structure or hierarchy, with each congregation more or less free to take their own call on questions of worship and interpretation orf scripture. The pastor is hired or fired by his congregation and nobody else has any say in the matter.
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Old 13.01.2015, 15:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

< vanity rant starts >

every time I read this thread header it really on multiple levels

< rant ends >
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Old 13.01.2015, 15:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Basically, and in a nutshell, that's how it works. It helps of course if the letter is registered.

Better still is to not sign up in the first place. Once they've got you by the toe they don't give up quickly, but eventually they will decide you're not worth the effort. But if you stay off their radar they won't have the same level of investment. Same as with any telemarketing agency really. The less you cooperate the quicker they understand that you aren't part of the demographic.

Of course if you declare that and it turns out you were lying, you can get done for fraud. So make sure what you claim is true.
I see... It's somehow possible to avoid Billag fees. Damn tricky for me as a Swiss citizen. On the other side, this is an expat forum for folks who come to Switzerland.

And if somebody here gives them the simple message: You don't have to care regarding Billag at all, this might be quite a disaster in the end -- unless those folks act very clever and so on from the beginning.
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Old 13.01.2015, 17:57
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I see... It's somehow possible to avoid Billag fees. Damn tricky for me as a Swiss citizen. On the other side, this is an expat forum for folks who come to Switzerland.

And if somebody here gives them the simple message: You don't have to care regarding Billag at all, this might be quite a disaster in the end -- unless those folks act very clever and so on from the beginning.
disaster...please explain
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  #72  
Old 13.01.2015, 18:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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disaster...please explain
If they indeed figured out you fooled them you have to pay as much as 5000.-

If you just ignored those Billag bills and got a Betreibung, this will be official and if you are looking for a new flat in Switzerland the new landlord might realize that and so on. Stuff like that.
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  #73  
Old 13.01.2015, 19:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Syria: I am not talking about the situation right NOW. The christian community has been living for many decades in Syria with full recognition and protection from the Assad dictators.

There are local christian communities in all those countries with churches, priests and monks sent by the pope.
No only that, just need to look at Iran, the "Christian" church near the old US Embassy in Theran is open to all Christian flavors, one size has to suit all. Problem for Accepting Isalm as a Relgion in CH is that as it has been posted there is no "The" Muslem faith, I doubt very much that Sunnis will go to a Shite mosque, or some of the teeth gnashing wahabis to a sufi one and that is the problem, islam comes as a package deal, get one get ´em all, the consequence will be a slightly different flavored mosque catering to all tastes on every street corner, and if you don´t believe me have a look at Blackburn, aka. "Slammertown" or as it is now known: "Blackburnistan"
Germany has the central comitee of Muslems and they do a fantasitc job of keeping the peace however of late they are under fire for not being islamic enough and that doesn´t surprise me as the Turkish imams get rotated back to Turkey every six monts or so as not to get (I quote) "contaminated" by western values.
Should Islam be a Landeskirche? No!
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Old 14.01.2015, 00:38
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hi all, it was nice reading this thread. I havnt read the article its a translation and doesnt make sense. I would like to make a comment and give my opinion. when it comes to the different sects in islam and the mosque having to cater for all, i think its important to note that with evrything e.g in POLITICS there are different groups, opinions, different people stand for different things. If a problem arises some people will be quick to say "away with islam look at what it did" but people protest against governments there are agruments about medicine [people have deep discussions on wether some medicines we use are good for us or not .] If something where to arise, we should understand that reality for our selves and those who will have negative opinions.

About islam: although islam has no sects; muslims are a Ummah (1nation), there ARE differences of opinions regarding many things in that religion, from the very core things such as fasting, the 5 daily prayers, dress code e.c.t. so undestanding, diversity and tolerance is naturally the core of the religion. The problem then is when anger arises between people and disunity. I think here it goes down to, anyone of us who wants peace and co-operation between people, just like with politics and medicine and whatever else; we need understanding about it and a solution. Muslims, Christians, Jews, athiests we all want peace.
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Old 14.01.2015, 02:02
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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No only that, just need to look at Iran, the "Christian" church near the old US Embassy in Theran is open to all Christian flavors, one size has to suit all. Problem for Accepting Isalm as a Relgion in CH is that as it has been posted there is no "The" Muslem faith, I doubt very much that Sunnis will go to a Shite mosque, or some of the teeth gnashing wahabis to a sufi one and that is the problem, islam comes as a package deal, get one get ´em all, the consequence will be a slightly different flavored mosque catering to all tastes on every street corner, and if you don´t believe me have a look at Blackburn, aka. "Slammertown" or as it is now known: "Blackburnistan"
Germany has the central comitee of Muslems and they do a fantasitc job of keeping the peace however of late they are under fire for not being islamic enough and that doesn´t surprise me as the Turkish imams get rotated back to Turkey every six monts or so as not to get (I quote) "contaminated" by western values.
Should Islam be a Landeskirche? No!
What will become a Landeskirche is the SUNNI (Maliki, Hanafi, Shafii) community but NOT the Shi'ite one, and neither the Sunni-Hanbali/Wahhabi) community. On the Christian side, it may well be, beside the Greek Orthodox church also the Russian Orthodox church


Most Protestants are NOT to go to a Catholic church
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  #76  
Old 14.01.2015, 09:38
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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So a religion that poor refugees belong to should disappear as the refugees can't pay for the upkeep of a building in which to worship
I know of no religion that disappears for the lack of a building. In Russia they tried it - and those irritating Christians started meeting in homes or in the forest. In many places where minority religions are actively persecuted (as opposed to not receiving church funding), the believers somehow keep it together.

Sure, it's nice to have your own building, but I really can't see it as essential. How do you think the first Muslims to arrive here practised their faith, or going further back, the first Jews

Your example is contrived anyway. It'd have to be a really obscure religious sect that was entirely without support from co-religionists already here.

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Your form of Christianity which you keep bringing to this forum seems so wrong on so many levels. Now religion is all about how rich the 'believers' are.
My form of Christianity requires no money at all, so that's an odd conclusion. I don't agree with state funding. Nor with charitable status for religious organisations (if they do charity work, they should set up a separate organisation to get charitable benefits) .

According to your view, all religious expression should receive state support. Great - we can have one of these on every street corner, paid out of your taxes.



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...About islam: although islam has no sects; muslims are a Ummah (1nation), there ARE differences of opinions regarding many things in that religion, from the very core things such as fasting, the 5 daily prayers, dress code e.c.t. ...
Sounds very much like the joy of sects to me. Just not named as such. You could say the same about Christianity - there is one Bride of Christ expressed in many denominations.

What's in a name? that which we call a sect
By any other name would smell as heterodox;
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  #77  
Old 14.01.2015, 10:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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On the Christian side, it may well be, beside the Greek Orthodox church also the Russian Orthodox church
I would have thought there are more Serbian Orthodox than Green Orthodox in Switzerland?

Soon maybe also Syrian Orthodox (bearing in mind that many Turkish, Lebanese and Palestianian Christians also adhere to the Syrian Orthodox Church)?
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Old 14.01.2015, 11:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Most Protestants are NOT to go to a Catholic church
Wooli- that was the case here not so long ago- and both sides would have been threatened with hell fire if they visited the 'heretics' in the other (Christian Church). One Catholic German student we had living with us (our assistante at school) would go to the local Anglican service at our little Church on Sunday morning. Her parents allowed this, as long as she went to Mass at the Catholic Church in town in the evening! When - mid 1980s.

But things are moving forwards- partly because of lack of attendance and voluntary paying of Church tax, and partly due to the mix being about 50/50 here now (in the 50s it was more like 85 protestants, immigration from Italy, Spain and Portugal changed the % slowly but surely). There are so many mixed family now, that weddings, baptisms, funerals, are often led by both Vicar or Priest. Our Protestant Church building is much bigger than the Catholic Chapel (see historical reasons above), so my dad's funeral was done in the Protestant Church, led by the Priest- but 2 of the local Vicars were present.

And 1 a month in our Valley, there is a ecumenical service- once in a Catholic and once in a Protestant Church, and let by both Vicars and Priests- with both Congregations. Hurrah. Not attended by the many small evangelical churches and sects though- a pity- although many from Salavation Army do.

We do not pay our Church tax as we are not believers nor do we have any intention of using their services- but we have no choice about part of our taxes going to the upkeep of the Church and Chapel buildings, heating, maintenance- and at present, the huge cost of replacing the heating system, but hey ho, we don't mind- as we don't mind helping out with many of the non religious Church community activities in the area. Our local Vicars (pasteurs) are really great people.
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Old 14.01.2015, 13:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Christianity as a whole isn't recognized in Switzerland either. It's the roman catholic and the protestant church that is recognized (and some other christian churches).

We don't recognize religions, we recognize specific organisations that represent a religion.
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Old 14.01.2015, 14:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Hi all, it was nice reading this thread. I havnt read the article its a translation and doesnt make sense. I would like to make a comment and give my opinion. when it comes to the different sects in islam and the mosque having to cater for all, i think its important to note that with evrything e.g in POLITICS there are different groups, opinions, different people stand for different things. If a problem arises some people will be quick to say "away with islam look at what it did" but people protest against governments there are agruments about medicine [people have deep discussions on wether some medicines we use are good for us or not .] If something where to arise, we should understand that reality for our selves and those who will have negative opinions.

About islam: although islam has no sects; muslims are a Ummah (1nation), there ARE differences of opinions regarding many things in that religion, from the very core things such as fasting, the 5 daily prayers, dress code e.c.t. so undestanding, diversity and tolerance is naturally the core of the religion. The problem then is when anger arises between people and disunity. I think here it goes down to, anyone of us who wants peace and co-operation between people, just like with politics and medicine and whatever else; we need understanding about it and a solution. Muslims, Christians, Jews, athiests we all want peace.
The problem is I don't think you can class religion and religious differences as being the same as politics and political differences. When a right-ward leaning politician argues with a left-ward leaning politician, they don't argue from a point of view of 'Ubermensch und untermensch' Irrespective of how tolerant the religious proclaim to be, they still believe that you are wrong, evil and less than human due to which god you believe in.

If that wasn't the case then why bother with rituals, and why believe in your particular brand of religion?
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