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  #81  
Old 14.01.2015, 14:12
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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The problem is I don't think you can class religion and religious differences as being the same as politics and political differences. When a right-ward leaning politician argues with a left-ward leaning politician, they don't argue from a point of view of 'Ubermensch und untermensch'
Are you sure?

Many left wingers do argue as if all right wingers are knuckle dragging misogynist racist fascists who have just about the IQ to remember their name, whereas many right wingers do argue as if all left wingers are sheepish automatons who love to raise taxes and celebrate mediocracy and harbor a secret ambition to make the world communist.
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  #82  
Old 14.01.2015, 14:52
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Are you sure?

Many left wingers do argue as if all right wingers are knuckle dragging misogynist racist fascists who have just about the IQ to remember their name, whereas many right wingers do argue as if all left wingers are sheepish automatons who love to raise taxes and celebrate mediocracy and harbor a secret ambition to make the world communist.
True, but politics is the science of persuasion and reason (idealistically), the reason we get these horrendous acts by religious people is only possible if you believe that your opponent isn't really human. Extremist politics comes into play, but with a deficit of 'reason' extremist politics is logically unsustainable. Religion seems to thrive on logical disconnects.
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Old 14.01.2015, 15:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Muslims, Christians, Jews...we all want peace.
I don't think that this is a valid premise from which to start, not simply because history clearly suggests otherwise but because any faith that believes that it represents the sole path to salvation cannot possibly be viewed as having "peace" as one of its objectives. unless, of course, the passing of judgment is viewed as an invitation to peace, which strikes me as rather absurd.
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  #84  
Old 14.01.2015, 15:16
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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True, but politics is the science of persuasion and reason (idealistically),
Idealistically, yes. But virtually all political discourse seems to be about scoring points at the expense of the opponent (for example by saying smart-sounding but meaningless things in debates) while motivating your own supporters to come out and vote. You rarely see arguments that are genuinely trying to convince the other party to change their point of view. At best they try to convince the swing voters.

Thus political discourse does not even attempt to create unanimaity through compromise but seeks to convince just sufficient people to be able to come to or remain in power.
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  #85  
Old 14.01.2015, 20:34
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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As said before, the larger Churches here (Reformed and Catholic) take on the provision of Social Care in lots and lots of guises- in their own buildings- and with their own staff, for the elderly, the handicapped, the frail, the unemployed, the lonely and the sick, drug addicts and alcoholics, etc. They visit hospitals and old peoples' homes, institutions for people with mental illness/problems, asylum seekers, etc, and individuals in their own homes. They organise volunteers to visit people in need, read for those who can't any more, take people to doctor's and hospital (quite a long way away)- organise luncheons on a regular basis for the elderly, and so much more.

Now, as an atheist- I'd agree totally that these services would be preferably delivered by secular professionals and volunteers organised and paid by the local Government- escpecially as Church tax payers, now voluntary, do not cover costs- but who am I to say- and how long would it be to totally reorganise such- and of course increase taxes to cover?
I'm not aware on how this all works in Switzerland.

In Germany a christian run hospital would get all the same subsidies like any secular hospital. So lots of people are led to believe the church is doing all this great social work out of its pockets when in fact they get paid like any other organization and no church funds go into this.

http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite...-kuh-1.6370748

The church is receiving some 5 billions in church taxes and 80% of this is used for administration and salaries but state subsidies amount to another 16 billions.

So this is all a "Mogelpackung", deceptive packaging.
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  #86  
Old 14.01.2015, 20:43
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Switzerland is not really in the business of recognizing religion. The recognition of Roman Catholic, Protestant and Old Catholic churches are purely from a historical and cultural context. Switzerland originated from a collection city-states aligned to one of these denominations. I don't see how Islam would fit into this context. Even baptists and mennonites did not fit into these and had to leave for America. Many of the Christian churches in Switzerland today are independent and self-financed.

Religion needs to be depoliticized. It needs to be separated from state. There have been so few benefits from conjoining Religion and State, if any. The outcome has more often led to more evil than it proposes to address.

In the case of collecting tithes through government taxes, I think this has had an effect of depoliticizing religion in Switzerland, at least in terms of local corruption. I know a church with a billionaire member who more often ends up footing the bill for their expenses. Everyone defers to what the billionaire prefers, in effect, the church ran to his preferences. I believe you see this kind of situation now with Saudi Wahabbist funding going into Mosques in the West. Perhaps this is one good reason to regulate the finances of mosques in the West. Running finances through a government agency my help the organization be more impartial to politics.


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I don't think that this is a valid premise from which to start, not simply because history clearly suggests otherwise but because any faith that believes that it represents the sole path to salvation cannot possibly be viewed as having "peace" as one of its objectives. unless, of course, the passing of judgment is viewed as an invitation to peace, which strikes me as rather absurd.
I don't think Buddhist incessantly repeat how peaceful they are, yet they are characteristically peaceful, and exhibit evidence of it without needing to state it.

Whenever I hear 'religion' and 'peace' nowadays, I can't help thinking of Dolf Lundgren's movie "I come in peace - Dark Angel". Inter-dimensional alien steals human endorphins from people while murmuring, "I come in peace". Ends with Dolf shooting him and saying, "You go in pieces".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pim4GLxxr00


And then there is Bruce in Finding Nemo:

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Old 14.01.2015, 21:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'd rather see the end of the recognition of churches.

Tom



Negative. A proposal to kill the church tax of the companies was sent down by the electorate of the Canton of Zürich. At the other hand, church and politics are separated thanks to the federal constitution, which means that the churches are not doing politics and if a priest wants to get into parliament, his entry looks as follows
Name: Marco Maurer
Partei : SP
Beruf: Pfarrer
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Old 14.01.2015, 21:15
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Well, as you know, this was voted through for both Neuchâtel and Geneva- where the tax is now totally optional, both for individuals- and also for Businesses. Businesses of course paid massively more than individuals- and most are now not paying- perhaps because they are owned and managed by foreign companies, like Phillip Morris.

The social services of great variety the local Churches organise are paid entirely out of their own pocket- mostly with the taxes- but also in past few years by selling quite a few buildings and land. No more to spare now- so that source of finance has gone. Many posts have gone, either via retirement, or non replacement, or just sacking too.

Last edited by Odile; 14.01.2015 at 21:27.
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  #89  
Old 14.01.2015, 21:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Switzerland is not really in the business of recognizing religion. The recognition of Roman Catholic, Protestant and Old Catholic churches are purely from a historical and cultural context. Switzerland originated from a collection city-states aligned to one of these denominations. I don't see how Islam would fit into this context. Even baptists and mennonites did not fit into these and had to leave for America. Many of the Christian churches in Switzerland today are independent and self-financed.

Religion needs to be depoliticized. It needs to be separated from state. There have been so few benefits from conjoining Religion and State, if any. The outcome has more often led to more evil than it proposes to address.

In the case of collecting tithes through government taxes, I think this has had an effect of depoliticizing religion in Switzerland, at least in terms of local corruption. I know a church with a billionaire member who more often ends up footing the bill for their expenses. Everyone defers to what the billionaire prefers, in effect, the church ran to his preferences. I believe you see this kind of situation now with Saudi Wahabbist funding going into Mosques in the West. Perhaps this is one good reason to regulate the finances of mosques in the West. Running finances through a government agency my help the organization be more impartial to politics.



Sunni Islam, Greek Orthodoxy, Russian Orthodox, Judaism fit well into the general pattern.


Religion became de-politicized in 1848
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Old 14.01.2015, 21:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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. At the other hand, church and politics are separated thanks to the federal constitution, which means that the churches are not doing politics and if a priest wants to get into parliament, his entry looks as follows
Name: Marco Maurer
Partei : SP
Beruf: Pfarrer
Not quite the separation you seem to think there is when some of the party names are CVP, EVP, CSP and others.
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Old 15.01.2015, 02:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Reply to: NotAllThere

In the islamic religion it is forbidden to seperate into sects: "and be not of those who join gods with Allah, those who split their religion, and become sects each rejoicing in that which is with itself" quran (chapter 30, verse 31-32)
"As for those who divide their religion and break into sects, you have no part in them in the least..." chapter 6 verse 159
When peolple make different groups, they disconnect and disunite, they cannot be so sincere (in religion)because people would take chances to make their group more popular or powerfl. instead God taught us to be 1 group but there is still differences within the religion and people have the ability to hold different views. And this is a very natural thing and its the same for the other natural creations around us; countries have moved around over time (there are different maps) fruits and vegetables change with time and there are many types from just 1 kind e.g strawberries(red,white) grapes (green, red, black) aubergine (small, big, purple, green)... no person is100% of one ethnicity either we are all very mixed. Animals have moved around- there are camels in china! which i heard came from the arab countries- which is probably true?! And sorry, the last point you made i didnt quite understand.
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Old 15.01.2015, 04:38
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Not quite the separation you seem to think there is when some of the party names are CVP, EVP, CSP and others.

The EVP, whenever obviously in favour of the Protestant church, is NOT part of the church, while I am not so sure about the CVP. But the CVP in the Bundesrat lost one of their two seats. The EVP never got relevant.
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Old 15.01.2015, 04:46
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Reply to: JonnyLaRock!

In my opinion politics and religion cannot be seperated; they are both systems with laws and you are punished for breaking the law, they both affect hospitals, how people are paid for the jobs they do, schools e.c.t.
I will skip punishments and explain how religion (with its rules) would effect us in the other areas.

Hospital - patients : healing with the medicine of the prophet . by ibn qayyim al jauziyah.
These sections explain about the doctors duty.

Me: Politicians who do not know about religion they allow ill people in hospitals to be fed sandwhiches,already cooked packaged food, that is heated before serving; unhealthy, unnutritous, unhelpful. And patients dont even have other options. And these are patients who have had big surgeries, elderly patients... and in psychiatry hospitals its the same kind of story too.
Islamic methodology
"Diet is the best cure; and the stomach is the home of disease; give each body what it is accostumed to (of food and medicine)

"The patient should only eat what is required to sustain his strength and should avoid what can aggrivate his condition"

We have to care strongly for those we are responsoble for, this is written down in islamic books; it is the actual saying of the prophet.
From the book (the writer)
"We must state that freah, healthy blood provides nutrition to the body."

Jobs:
Muhammed said that on the day when we will be judged he will complain to God about the muslim who gave someone less wages because he was of another faith. (It is not exactly written like this-but same message)but this is a huge warning not just for that scenario but to not give people their wages on time is a huge sin also , not paying people enough money for their work; these are all teachings taught by muhammed peace be upon him.

Lets compare-
teachers, doctors, surgeons work so much and dont get enough money to travel the world and have hassle free- luxorious holidays. They dont get payed anything near what an athlete gets (footballer to be precise( im not sure about others- i would like to mention another since footballers are always singled out -its not their fault)
But where is the justic and logic in that politics?
Its backwards.

Ill make a quick point on education, 40 years ago women in some countries were finally allowed (became legal) to get an education. However in the islamic world the prophet muhammed who was here in the 6th century said
: " if you teach one man you teach one person, if you teach one woman you teach a nation."
Also paradise is guaranteed for anyone who educates properly and raises correctly 3 daughters. Someone asked what about if you only have 2, also if you have only 2. And it is also the same for 1 daughter i believe.
It was said about the wife of the prophet (peace be upon them both) if you put her intelligence on one scale and the intelligence of the men (in that area) on the other scale hers would weigh more.

Politics is about morales 100% you have to have morales and logic to be a politician; and you cannot have logic if you dont have morales.

I must just say you may not be seeing the best examples of what being a muslim is, depending on where you are.
But when it comes to crimes people commit its both politicians and people of religions.
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  #94  
Old 15.01.2015, 05:08
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

A person of religion cannot believe that a person of another faith is not human or less than us. Very simlly because the prophets came to teach people the true religion because they were not following it and because people had invented other religions.
Not all of muhammeds followers accepted him straight away. Some of his close friends turned against him. some tortured and killed those who followed muhamed but became muslims later.
Muhammed said:
The most perfect believer in respects of faith is he who is best of them in manners.

We are taught over and over again (in books) that people of other faiths went to the prophet for protection (from whoever)
But either iam lieing and these quotes are no true and are not written in islamic books, or the opinion that islam does teach violence and to kill anyone who believes something different than you. So .?


(I dont know if my other post was a good explanation to some of the questions. Hopefully it was lf some benefit)
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Old 15.01.2015, 05:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Reply to: JonnyLaRock!

In my opinion politics and religion cannot be seperated; they are both systems with laws and you are punished for breaking the law, they both affect hospitals, how people are paid for the jobs they do, schools e.c.t.
I will skip punishments and explain how religion (with its rules) would effect us in the other areas.

Hospital - patients : healing with the medicine of the prophet . by ibn qayyim al jauziyah.
These sections explain about the doctors duty.

Me: Politicians who do not know about religion they allow ill people in hospitals to be fed sandwhiches,already cooked packaged food, that is heated before serving; unhealthy, unnutritous, unhelpful. And patients dont even have other options. And these are patients who have had big surgeries, elderly patients... and in psychiatry hospitals its the same kind of story too.
Islamic methodology
"Diet is the best cure; and the stomach is the home of disease; give each body what it is accostumed to (of food and medicine)

"The patient should only eat what is required to sustain his strength and should avoid what can aggrivate his condition"


Lets compare-
teachers, doctors, surgeons work so much and dont get enough money to travel the world and have hassle free- luxorious holidays. They dont get payed anything near what an athlete gets (footballer to be precise( im not sure about others- i would like to mention another since footballers are always singled out -its not their fault)
But where is the justic and logic in that politics?
Its backwards.

.

They ARE separated.


>> UNI-SPITAL and WAID-SPITAL (both cantonal) as well as the TRIEMLI-SPITAL (CITY of Zürich) are NOT under the rule of a church
>> Schools are NOT under the rule of the church, no longer even in Catholic Cantons
>> your verbally attacking non-religious politicians is unacceptable
>> That the patient should only eat what is required to sustain his strength and should avoid what can aggravate his condition" is general wisdom and has nothing to do with Religion
>> dôctors and surgeons and teachers are WELL PAID, and CAN travel the world in a decent way
>> most athletes including footballers are NOT well paid or not at all. You pick out the TOP CREAM who get super salaries but this has nothing to do with realities of most


************************************************** ***********************************


Your next point. You simply omit the fact that the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH until about 1980 here declared itself as
Die Einzig-und-allein Seeligmachende Kirche
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Old 15.01.2015, 09:16
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I think that Christianity is still embedded in Swiss (and elsewhere) politics and culture more than we perhaps realize. A few examples are the laws here requiring that people do not make excessive noise on Sundays (e.g. not allowed to mow one's lawn or drill, etc.) and that most businesses/stores are closed.

Or is that just pure coincidence?

Personally, it doesn't really bother me that much, but I do see it as being a remnant of Christian-based laws and society. If we truly were secular, then why isn't Sunday considered the same, in a legal/cultural sense, as a Saturday?
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Old 15.01.2015, 10:13
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I think that Christianity is still embedded in Swiss (and elsewhere) politics and culture more than we perhaps realize. A few examples are the laws here requiring that people do not make excessive noise on Sundays (e.g. not allowed to mow one's lawn or drill, etc.) and that most businesses/stores are closed.

Or is that just pure coincidence?

Personally, it doesn't really bother me that much, but I do see it as being a remnant of Christian-based laws and society. If we truly were secular, then why isn't Sunday considered the same, in a legal/cultural sense, as a Saturday?

Its no coincidence. The Swiss population is Christian and have proportionate representation in its politics. A number of parties identify itself as Swiss. There is a cross on the flag. Does this come as a surprise to anybody?
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Old 15.01.2015, 10:16
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...king of Dolf Lundgren's movie "I come in peace - Dark Angel". Inter-dimensional alien steals human endorphins from people while murmuring, "I come in peace". Ends with Dolf shooting him and saying, "You go in pieces".
And now I can't help thinking "We come in peace (shoot to kill)" from Startrekking.

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In the islamic religion it is forbidden to seperate into sects:... And sorry, the last point you made i didnt quite understand.
The point was, Islam may forbid sects, but if it looks like a sect, sounds like a sect, then it's probably a sect. Your description of the differences found within Islam match the definition of "sect". Your argument seems to be "Islam forbids sects, so there can't be sects". Islam also forbids alcohol, but alcohol still exists.

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I think that Christianity is still embedded in Swiss (and elsewhere) politics and culture more than we perhaps realize. A few examples are the laws here requiring that people do not make excessive noise on Sundays (e.g. not allowed to mow one's lawn or drill, etc.) and that most businesses/stores are closed...
There's a difference between religion being embedded in the political system of a country and traditions which have arisen from religion.

The reason that Sunday has special treatment is because to remove that would require a law change, and that hasn't happened yet. Not, in my view, because Switzerland is a Christian country or the church forbids it. Even non-religious Swiss (the majority) like Sunday being different. Until that changes, the law won't change.
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Old 15.01.2015, 10:40
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Switzerland is not really in the business of recognizing religion. The recognition of Roman Catholic, Protestant and Old Catholic churches are purely from a historical and cultural context. Switzerland originated from a collection city-states aligned to one of these denominations. I don't see how Islam would fit into this context. Even baptists and mennonites did not fit into these and had to leave for America. Many of the Christian churches in Switzerland today are independent and self-financed.
Living in a village known for its SVP tendancies and being in a position where I have had many deep politicial and religious discussions with villagers from all over Canton Schwyz, I can attest to the fact that, despite the low attendance at the local churches, the Swiss are still very much Christian. It's part of their identity. The local priest may have lost his powerful hold over the Christian community but the idea of Switzerland being Christian is still very much alive.

To top it off, the Swiss are relieved that religion and State are not completely separated because it gives them more control over what religious ideas are being taught in schools. There's transparency which makes it difficult for extremists or fundamentalists to become respected and blindly followed.

Perhaps this is why the idea of making Islam an official state religion in Switzerland a logical one. It's about transparency and control. It's about creating a breeding ground of respect and living together in peace so extremists have little chance to cause the havoc they so desire.
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Old 15.01.2015, 10:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I don't know of any ethnic Swiss who is not Christian in heritage and culture. Sure they are free to distance themselves and proclaim to be atheist or some other religion. But as for cultural identity, the Swiss are Christian.

I agree there are practical benefits of gaining transparent monitoring of mosques. But given the current climate of suspicion of Islam, the Swiss insistence on their cultural hegemony, the minaret ban, the vitriolic politics, etc., I don't see the Swiss buying into that proposition. Their approach to immigration is integration, and less multiculturalism. They are trying to avoid parallel sub-cultures, for reasons that France and Britain demonstrate.
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