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  #101  
Old 15.01.2015, 10:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I found it... "interesting"... that just two days ago, I received in the Post a large form that I am required to complete, as a foreigner here, and one of the questions on it was my religious affiliation.

Other questions included how many number of people in my household, etc.

Did anyone else receive this? (I am married to a Swiss and currently here under a C permit).

I've been here for almost six years and had never received this form before.
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  #102  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:02
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I found it... "interesting"... that just two days ago, I received in the Post a large form that I am required to complete, as a foreigner here, and one of the questions on it was my religious affiliation.

Other questions included how many number of people in my household, etc.

Did anyone else receive this? (I am married to a Swiss and currently here under a C permit).

I've been here for almost six years and had never received this form before.
Its a census form. Not that "interesting", just that the BFS thinks you`re special.
They send it out randomly to a certain percentage of the population.

Edit: and its optional to complete, your arent required to complete it as a foreigner
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  #103  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Its a census form. Not that "interesting", just that the BFS thinks you`re special.
They send it out randomly to a certain percentage of the population.

Edit: and its optional to complete, your arent required to complete it as a foreigner
Thanks for that! My Swiss husband had also never seen or received one, which made us think it was sent only to foreigners... and that it was also perhaps a new "thing."
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  #104  
Old 15.01.2015, 11:37
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...Perhaps this is why the idea of making Islam an official state religion in Switzerland a logical one. It's about transparency and control...
Certainly most of the weirdest Christian off-shoots and cults have come from the US with its separation between Church and State, so maybe the idea has merit! On the other hand religious extremists can easily pull their kids out of religion classes and teach them themselves, or have whatever the equivalent of Sunday School is for them. So would it really help?
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  #105  
Old 15.01.2015, 12:29
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Not quite the separation you seem to think there is when some of the party names are CVP, EVP, CSP and others.
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I think that Christianity is still embedded in Swiss (and elsewhere) politics and culture more than we perhaps realize. A few examples are the laws here requiring that people do not make excessive noise on Sundays (e.g. not allowed to mow one's lawn or drill, etc.) and that most businesses/stores are closed.

Or is that just pure coincidence?

Personally, it doesn't really bother me that much, but I do see it as being a remnant of Christian-based laws and society. If we truly were secular, then why isn't Sunday considered the same, in a legal/cultural sense, as a Saturday?
Of course swiss culture has "christian" stamped all over, how could that not be considering the role and importance of the religion even today, let alone in past centuries?

In many respects it doesn't matter if a country or state is laicistic or not. For instance, IIRC the US Constitution mentions God exactly once (in the date, Anno Domini) and yet religion plays a much bigger role in US politics. In some states "Intelligent Design" is even tought as a valid alternative to Darwins theory, its proponents even dare call ID science! How many members of Congress belong to no religion at all, and on the other hand how many claim to consult their god or something similar?

Even France, as has been said, is not entirely laicistic.

Though I'm agnostic I'm not sure if full laicism in Switzerland would have much positive effects - the big churches here actually provide very useful services to believers and non-believers alike, and that indeed deserves recognizing in some form or other.

Islam, however, is not part of our culture. And the fact that the Koran unconditionally subjects muslims to the Sharia raises additional concerns, as evidenced by the IZRS (Islamischer Zentralrat) which demands that Sharia be part of swiss law (and eventually would probably demand that it reign supreme).

For me it's not even a question if Islam should be accepted as a Landeskirche, the answer is a clear no.
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  #106  
Old 15.01.2015, 14:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Absolutely!

Maybe based on the model used in the home of Islam..........Saudi Arabia?
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  #107  
Old 15.01.2015, 15:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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In my opinion politics and religion cannot be seperated; they are both systems with laws and you are punished for breaking the law, they both affect hospitals, how people are paid for the jobs they do, schools e.c.t.
I will skip punishments and explain how religion (with its rules) would effect us in the other areas.

Hospital - patients : healing with the medicine of the prophet . by ibn qayyim al jauziyah.
These sections explain about the doctors duty.

Me: Politicians who do not know about religion they allow ill people in hospitals to be fed sandwhiches,already cooked packaged food, that is heated before serving; unhealthy, unnutritous, unhelpful. And patients dont even have other options. And these are patients who have had big surgeries, elderly patients... and in psychiatry hospitals its the same kind of story too.
Islamic methodology
"Diet is the best cure; and the stomach is the home of disease; give each body what it is accostumed to (of food and medicine)

"The patient should only eat what is required to sustain his strength and should avoid what can aggrivate his condition"

We have to care strongly for those we are responsoble for, this is written down in islamic books; it is the actual saying of the prophet.
From the book (the writer)
"We must state that freah, healthy blood provides nutrition to the body."

Jobs:
Muhammed said that on the day when we will be judged he will complain to God about the muslim who gave someone less wages because he was of another faith. (It is not exactly written like this-but same message)but this is a huge warning not just for that scenario but to not give people their wages on time is a huge sin also , not paying people enough money for their work; these are all teachings taught by muhammed peace be upon him.

Lets compare-
teachers, doctors, surgeons work so much and dont get enough money to travel the world and have hassle free- luxorious holidays. They dont get payed anything near what an athlete gets (footballer to be precise( im not sure about others- i would like to mention another since footballers are always singled out -its not their fault)
But where is the justic and logic in that politics?
Its backwards.

Ill make a quick point on education, 40 years ago women in some countries were finally allowed (became legal) to get an education. However in the islamic world the prophet muhammed who was here in the 6th century said
: " if you teach one man you teach one person, if you teach one woman you teach a nation."
Also paradise is guaranteed for anyone who educates properly and raises correctly 3 daughters. Someone asked what about if you only have 2, also if you have only 2. And it is also the same for 1 daughter i believe.
It was said about the wife of the prophet (peace be upon them both) if you put her intelligence on one scale and the intelligence of the men (in that area) on the other scale hers would weigh more.

Politics is about morales 100% you have to have morales and logic to be a politician; and you cannot have logic if you dont have morales.

I must just say you may not be seeing the best examples of what being a muslim is, depending on where you are.
But when it comes to crimes people commit its both politicians and people of religions.
I think it is an important mandate of civilization to create a firm barrier between religion and politics/law.

Irrespective of the points you have mentioned above, in which Mohammad seems to be pretty progressive in his dictated society, it still remains a dictated society above question and amendment.

Given a choice of totalitarian regime, (which in general one is not given by definition), I don't think I'd choose an infallible totalitarian regime dictated by the interpreter of a Iron-age illiterate cave dwelling statutory rapist, who happens to talk to Angels.

And also if the prophet has mentioned all the quotations you cite above, why does every Islamic state / country get it completely wrong?

Last edited by JonnyLaRock!; 15.01.2015 at 16:07.
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  #108  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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... I don't think I'd choose an infallible totalitarian regime dictated by the interpreter of a bronze-age illiterate cave dwelling statutory rapist, who happens to talk to Angels...
I think you'll find the bronze age was rather earlier.
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  #109  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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A person of religion cannot believe that a person of another faith is not human or less than us. Very simlly because the prophets came to teach people the true religion because they were not following it and because people had invented other religions.
Not all of muhammeds followers accepted him straight away. Some of his close friends turned against him. some tortured and killed those who followed muhamed but became muslims later.
Muhammed said:
The most perfect believer in respects of faith is he who is best of them in manners.

We are taught over and over again (in books) that people of other faiths went to the prophet for protection (from whoever)
But either iam lieing and these quotes are no true and are not written in islamic books, or the opinion that islam does teach violence and to kill anyone who believes something different than you. So .?


(I dont know if my other post was a good explanation to some of the questions. Hopefully it was lf some benefit)
What about those who reject faith and Islam actively, are they not apostates? Both Islam and Catholicism are clear on one thing and that is the sinner is destined for hell unless he TRULY repents his actions and accepts his true god. Which indicates that Mohamed is only really accepting and tolerant during a 'make your mind up time', and only if you accept an offer you cannot refuse...
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  #110  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:09
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I think you'll find the bronze age was rather earlier.
Iron-age sorry, I preferred the Vikings anyway.
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  #111  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Whenever I hear 'religion' and 'peace' nowadays, I can't help thinking of
In fact leaders of islam were also leaders of war from the very beginning including Muhammed and the caliphs. They conquered half the world. The homeland of islam is the least tolerant country on earth. So who is fooling anyone with this islam is about piece and tolerance? But weirdly this seems to work. Erdogan came up with idea of islamophobia and western media accepted this. Turkey like most muslim countries has eradicated its christian population.

In the small city Kreuzlingen Switzerland 23% of pupils were muslim in 2009 (http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/14310228). So it seems we're only a couple of generations away from becoming a muslim country. Looking at any muslim country, I'm not looking forward to this. You can call this phobia or racism. I would call it common sense and self preservation.
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  #112  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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What about those who reject faith and Islam actively, are they not apostates? Both Islam and Catholicism are clear on one thing and that is the sinner is destined for hell unless he TRULY repents his actions and accepts his true god. Which indicates that Mohamed is only really accepting and tolerant during a 'make your mind up time', and only if you accept an offer you cannot refuse...
I'm a Catholic and I don't believe what you've written at all. Many don't.
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  #113  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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What about those who reject faith and Islam actively, are they not apostates? Both Islam and Catholicism are clear on one thing and that is the sinner is destined for hell unless he TRULY repents his actions and accepts his true god. Which indicates that Mohamed is only really accepting and tolerant during a 'make your mind up time', and only if you accept an offer you cannot refuse...
I'm a Catholic and I don't believe what you've written at all. Many don't.
No offense intended, but in that case you're not a catholic from the catholic churches' point of view, or the popes', as well as according to the bible since you don't accept it as the full truth.
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  #114  
Old 15.01.2015, 16:57
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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What about those who reject faith and Islam actively, are they not apostates? Both Islam and Catholicism are clear on one thing and that is the sinner is destined for hell unless he TRULY repents his actions and accepts his true god. Which indicates that Mohamed is only really accepting and tolerant during a 'make your mind up time', and only if you accept an offer you cannot refuse...
Once a Catholic, always a Catholic- if you reject part or all, you become a 'failed' Catholic but not a non-Catholic. Same for Islam. My father was always considered a Catholic, even though he was rejected by his Church for marrying a protestant. My FIL of course was always considered a Muslim, but a failed one, for rejecting the fatith, and all his children and grand-children and grand-grand children too.
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  #115  
Old 15.01.2015, 19:39
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Its no coincidence. The Swiss population is Christian and have proportionate representation in its politics. A number of parties identify itself as Swiss. There is a cross on the flag. Does this come as a surprise to anybody?

The cross in the flag is the Cross of the Kingdom of Piemonte-Sardinia and was taken into the new constitution in 1848 under the influence of General Henri Dufour
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  #116  
Old 15.01.2015, 21:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Actually despite various statements in media, and some things trying to be imposed like "huge differences" between Sunni and Shia Islam, there are very little differences between Islam around the globe.

There can be huge differences how Muslim people around the globe perceive and live Islam, after all they are more than 1.6 billion Muslims and even them being humans make enough space for huge differences between them. But that does not imply multiple Islams, otherwise each religion would have as many forms as adherents.


[QUOTE=MrVertigo;2317035]Very good question. Sarkozy in France tried that and he partially succeeded. The challenge is that there is no "one" Islam. People from Turkey, Balkans, Pakistan, North Africa, Middle East have different flavors of islam even within Sunni or Shia communities. Add to that the willingness of some countries to influence their communities living abroad for different reasons. People were scared in France to hear Qatar willing to invest billions of $ in the suburbs to improve life quality (a project defended by Sarkozy)....so it did not happen.

/QUOTE]
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  #117  
Old 15.01.2015, 21:52
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Not sure if somebody mentioned, did not read all the posts, but in Austria Islam is an officially recognized religion and institutions have some level of state regulation. Even though history of Islam within these two countries is different, I guess Austria and Switzerland are similar enough to have an idea of how it would work.
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  #118  
Old 15.01.2015, 22:10
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Actually despite various statements in media, and some things trying to be imposed like "huge differences" between Sunni and Shia Islam, there are very little differences between Islam around the globe.
stop it. there are people dying all over the globe because of the differences in "Islam". just like people died all over the globe for hundreds of years because of the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

fyi, if people are killing each other their differences, that qualifies as "huge" for me.
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  #119  
Old 15.01.2015, 22:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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stop it. there are people dying all over the globe because of the differences in "Islam". just like people died all over the globe for hundreds of years because of the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

fyi, if people are killing each other their differences, that qualifies as "huge" for me.
"stop it"????

how do you accuse so easily because of some insane peoples actions with no basis in Islam or various groups with various own benefit and motives?!!!!

People did not die because of differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, but because of struggle for power primarily. If two guys had honest intentions, Catholic and Protestant, I can't see them fighting each other but trying peacefully help the other find the right way as long as the other does not attack him. As soon as the attack occurs, at least one of them did not had good intentions.

I actually really did not want to start a religious discussion from my point of view here, because I believe that whoever wants to inform himself with well intentions can do so despite disinformation available.
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  #120  
Old 15.01.2015, 22:41
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

If there really was a god, don't you think it would have swooped down from the sky and settled this mess for everyone, once and for all?

Or is it just sitting up there, looking down, and laughing to itself:

"Ha ha, suckers! None of you have it right!"
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