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Old 15.01.2015, 23:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hi Wollishofener
I have to apologize for what i wrote that seemed abusive, i dont accept that type of behaviour for myself, i apologize. I would still like to continue the discussion though, some negative points were made about my religion but i cant be offended because i think people here are trying to use proofs to PROVE (very important) their opinions and no one is just posting constant negative comments.

If i can explain, politicians do not make decisions based on their religion; so anything i said was not against their religion.
* its about the inabilities of humans to run a country well enough WITHOUT the correct guidlines.

About my quote which you stated 'its general wisdom and nothing to do with religion'
it is but that is not being practised. I was a volunteer and have been a patient: the food i had to give the patients where as i described. if the most vulnerable and needy are not given their basic rights, what good is there in that system or (even the people -us) This in religion, is the exact opposite of how we are supposed to be.

About the footballers, you made points that i didnt know and i havnt researched but i still want to point out; from the great football teams and the money that they get; are there any great teachers or great doctors and surgeons who get the same thing?
When some people choose a career (or lifestyle even) to serve others, help others to benefit the community they deserve recognistion and to be rewarded.

"Sects"
My opinion is; there is a difference between having different opinions and disagreements; to people being in different groups in their religion - It was very clear in the verses of the quran, God did not teach that. So i think we have to understand why - if God clearly said that - why are there some people saying they follow this, and they belong to sects?

In the medicine of non muslims they have 'schools of thought' its the same thing. Its the natural system for humans.

The last thing you said i couldnt check it on the net.
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  #122  
Old 15.01.2015, 23:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Before i say anything else i hope i dont come across as rude or harsh. I think it can come across that way sometimes. ***i just wanted to let you know.***
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  #123  
Old 15.01.2015, 23:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

http://www.wikihow.com/Play-the-Telephone-Game
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  #124  
Old 15.01.2015, 23:47
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Phos:
"...given the current climate of suspicion of islam... i dont see the swiss buying into that proposition..."
I believe that people are respnosible to take care of their country and make it a peacful place; so in my opinion allowing people in your land to hold deep suspicions about each other, and knowing that because of these suspicions and negative opinions of each other innocent people get attacked; from both of the sides. But that is the problem, its just left to be that way. Muslims get attacked in different countries and we know that. And from the other side normal people are angry at islam and extremist muslims and have fears too. Do you think governments should be trying more to remove these dangers and suspicions by inviting people to peace and unity and working openly towards this and making it a priority?

And i think when we realize that how this came about more people will be open to it. The british and american governments from around 60 years ago i believe started to bombs those arab countries; men, women, children, elderly. And nobody stopped them and sti they are continueing and no one has stopped them. There are american people from a particular group i know "code pink" who protest against these acts of those in government and they have stated many times

"You are puting the american people in danger" meaning because of their horrendous act of terrorism in other countries. There are soldiers who have left and you cant find their videos on youtube telling us the injustice that was done against innocent people.

Actually those soldiers are victims of this too, they have mental problems and horrific memories.

And actually there was a story of a soldier with depression who was left homeless and was helped by religious people. It doesnt matter what our past is, God has told us, we try to become better and change our actions.

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  #125  
Old 16.01.2015, 00:05
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

NotAllThere

Are only people of religion able to teach their kids wrong, extreme behaviour? Everyone has that abity, in hitlers time kids were dragged into it too. So people like you and me should work for the goodness in our socities because bad people will make their bad actions.
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  #126  
Old 16.01.2015, 00:15
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I will admit I haven't read through the whole post here...

That being said I've always been a firm believer that church and state should always be firmly separate.

Regardless of all the emotions flying around this issue the Pope said it best in my mind at least...

According to news reports, Pope Francis said Thursday there are limits to freedom of expression, especially when it insults or ridicules someone’s faith.

Francis spoke about the Paris terror attacks while en route to the Philippines, defending free speech as not only a fundamental human right but a duty to speak one’s mind for the sake of the common good.

But he said there were limits.

By way of example, he referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.

“If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. “It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”
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  #127  
Old 16.01.2015, 00:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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By way of example, he referred to Alberto Gasparri, who organizes papal trips and was standing by his side aboard the papal plane.

“If my good friend Dr. Gasparri says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch,” Francis said, throwing a pretend punch his way. “It’s normal. You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others.”
Am kind of dissapointed with this reaction, given the positive changes the pope has indicated in other matters of the catholic church

Of course as a religious leader he cannot endorse mockery of religion, but I do wish he had categorically rejected violence. "Expect a punch" will be interpreted by many as license to employ violence in defending religion.
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  #128  
Old 16.01.2015, 00:25
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...license to employ violence in defending religion.
I think the Catholic Church's position on the use of violence in "defense" of religion should be abundantly clear by now, after nearly 2,000 years.
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  #129  
Old 16.01.2015, 00:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

JonnyLaRock!

You are right islam is a totalitarian regime but a perfect one

That is a very important question. And i did claim islam has the best system so i will try to help us get the correct answer.
The first image i uploaded is for this question. Do you understand what answer im trying to give from that? [And God has full wisdom i just try]

Then you have a perfect answer about muhammed being a dictator: that verse is straight from the quran: Gods words to muhammed. And then the other is an example of our attitude to nonbelievers.

And here is a short chapter from the ending of the quran named "the disbelivers" ... have a look at it.

About those who reject faith; the prophet was an orphan and one person that raised him, loved him and even gave special treament even from his own children was his uncle- who also supported him in spreading islam. On his death bed the prophey was desprately trying to get his beloved uncle to state the statement of faith "i bear witness that their is no god worthy of worship but God and muhammed is the messenger of God" but the hypocrites were there saying are you going to reject the faith of your fathers and so on... and he rejected faith and died. The prophets love for him still continued and he will ask Allah on judgment day to only punish his uncle the smallest way. He will still be there forever and there is no ease or happiness in hell, but the prophet loved him so much and wants to do all he can, and after dieing a disbeliever thats evrything he can do; May the peacd and blessings of God be upon muhammed.
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  #130  
Old 16.01.2015, 01:02
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Phos:
"...given the current climate of suspicion of islam... i dont see the swiss buying into that proposition..."
I believe that people are respnosible to take care of their country and make it a peacful place; so in my opinion allowing people in your land to hold deep suspicions about each other, and knowing that because of these suspicions and negative opinions of each other innocent people get attacked; from both of the sides. But that is the problem, its just left to be that way. Muslims get attacked in different countries and we know that. And from the other side normal people are angry at islam and extremist muslims and have fears too. Do you think governments should be trying more to remove these dangers and suspicions by inviting people to peace and unity and working openly towards this and making it a priority?
I don't really believe the solution lies with our governments. In fact, the governments are just as much a cause of all these problems as anything else. Although I do take a little more exception with the Swiss government. While Switzerland may have been driven by financial profit motives, its posture of neutrality has kept it away from a lot more problems. I also don't think this is a matter of socially engineering the minds and opinions of people.

I also don't believe it can be found in religious organizations, because such organizations are run by men who can be subject to just as much evil and corruption as anyone else, with even greater potential for more. By claiming to have God's authority, and to have God's blessings in everything they do, including the bad things they do, it increases the damage of their evil even more.

In my faith, each individual has their own personal relationship with God, and with each other. It is about how each individual live their lives, the decisions they make, and the relationships they have. These relationship are meant to be lived out personally and directly, without having to go through anyone else, nor through any organization, nor some other humans representing God's authority. It is not according to how someone else interprets how you should live your before God. It is about how you decide how to live out your own life.

There are good Christians, and some very bad Christians. There are good atheists, and some very bad atheists. There are good Muslims, and some very bad Muslims. These classifications divide us and cause conflicts. We can't really have true relationships through these classifications. Trying to do that would only give us a relationship to some abstract classification or idea. So I do believe it helps to drop all these pretensions and develop relationships with individuals directly. Its much easier to achieve peace and unity between two individuals than peace and unity between 2 billion and 2 billion. And perhaps its better that way. Perhaps its about quality and not quantity of these relationships.
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  #131  
Old 16.01.2015, 01:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Well, after a very intense discussion with my representative group of Innerschwyzers, I've come to the conclusion there's no way this initiative would pass in Switzerland.
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  #132  
Old 16.01.2015, 01:21
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I agree so much with what you said, the 4th paragraph confused me i thought you were a muslim. That is my understanding of life too.

Some things i disagree with.

What you said about quality over quantity and the other point i agree 100%.

There were some points i wanted to make but from what i have read your understanding and mine are very similar. whatever points i wanted to make, i dont think it would make a difference, you probably hold the same opinion
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  #133  
Old 16.01.2015, 01:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Well, after a very intense discussion with my representative group of Innerschwyzers, I've come to the conclusion there's no way this initiative would pass in Switzerland.

Can you explain more please?
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  #134  
Old 16.01.2015, 10:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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"stop it"????

how do you accuse so easily because of some insane peoples actions with no basis in Islam or various groups with various own benefit and motives?!!!!

People did not die because of differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, but because of struggle for power primarily. If two guys had honest intentions, Catholic and Protestant, I can't see them fighting each other but trying peacefully help the other find the right way as long as the other does not attack him. As soon as the attack occurs, at least one of them did not had good intentions.

I actually really did not want to start a religious discussion from my point of view here, because I believe that whoever wants to inform himself with well intentions can do so despite disinformation available.
You've never been to Belfast or Glasgow on marching day! Islamic State?! Religious intolerance? we're 400 years ahead of you mate!

Religion in general was an unsophisticated method of explaining the unexplainable to our neo-caveman ancestors, as a by-product this fostered a 'student-teacher' power relationship but throughout history the religious have never been directly in control but close to the law makers and war lords influencing their decisions. It is always helpful to fight with 'God' on your side, not because those war lords believed in schismatic differences or that worshiping a different God made you 'stupid' or 'unclean' 'semi-human', but because they knew the proletaria believed this, and ultimately wars are fought be the masses.
The people will believe anything you tell them, and I assure you when education is limited allegiances lie firmly on sect/clan boundaries, and will be viciously protected by zealots, who are not in control and who are controlled by their religion solely.

This fact is ultimately what leads good people to do bad things.

Muslims are not responsible for the acts of other Muslims, but religious leaders could do a lot more to prevent extremism, releasing edicts and issuing dogmas would invalidate extremism, why is/has that not been done!

1% of 1.6 billion is 16 million people, are thought to be extremist Muslims, a country the size of Austria and Switzerland combined!

Islam in its current un-revised form will continue to give the disadvantaged and disenfranchised an excuse to carry out these acts of terror.
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  #135  
Old 16.01.2015, 10:23
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You've never been to Belfast or Glasgow on marching day! Islamic State?! Religious intolerance? we're 400 years ahead of you mate!
........................
Islam in its current un-revised form will continue to give the disadvantaged and disenfranchised an excuse to carry out these acts of terror.


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JonnyLaRock!

You are right islam is a totalitarian regime but a perfect one

That is a very important question. And i did claim islam has the best system so i will try to help us get the correct answer.
It's obvious we all are living in parallel worlds...
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  #136  
Old 16.01.2015, 10:42
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

There is an event happening today

Dzemat der bosnischen gemeinde schlieren
Jan 16: 7:30 Pm - 9 :45 pm

"Byzantium, or Istanbul as it is known today, has over the course of 2,000 years been the capital of three empires and two of the world’s greatest religions. Starting from the rule of Sultan Saleem the Grim, through the rule of the female Sultanas and all the way up to the start of the First World War in this hour-long documentary the historian Simon Sebag Montefiore tells the story of how this city rose under Ottoman rule to become the cosmopolitan world capital of this vast Empire, and one of the global centres of Islam.
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  #137  
Old 16.01.2015, 10:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Have you seen the pictures i posted and what islam says?
'Repel evil with that which is better and the one who had emnity between you will become as a close friend'

Does that teach hatred to people different you, or even someone who had emnity to you and did something bad to you. I think i have posted many points on what islam teaches about dealing with people of different beliefs. I think thats very clear. Can you please see the pictures and quotes i have made.

When its comes to extreme behaviour dont forget what is happening now, there are many innocent children and people dying and british and americam soldiers! Because of politicians for their greedy desires. What do you think about that?
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  #138  
Old 16.01.2015, 10:58
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hopefully that didnt sound harsh or anything im really just making points and trying to explain.
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  #139  
Old 16.01.2015, 11:48
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You are right [INSERT REGIME OF YOUR CHOICE] is a totalitarian regime but a perfect one
it should not matter how many emoticons are put after a statement like the one above, it is neither cute, clever nor funny. I have intentionally chosen the link below, btw, because Hitchens makes many of the correct arguments as relates to a religion other than Islam (so that I hope you do not take it as a personal attack against Islam) - although of course those arguments apply just as equally to Islam.

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Old 16.01.2015, 11:53
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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You are right islam is a totalitarian regime but a perfect one
....
That is a very important question. And i did claim islam has the best system so i will try to help us get the correct answer.

Do you have any proof of this? Or would you be happy to just hypnotize the whole world, or beat them into submission until everyone agrees with it?

I suppose if you would just kill off anybody who does not agree with it, then the whole world would agree with it. At that point you might have a religion of peace and unity. Would that make you happy?
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