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  #161  
Old 16.01.2015, 19:04
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Minimimi, I appreciate you spending the time to responds to these. I'm not sure it is always helps to compare with Christianity though. I'm not really interested in making claims of one is better than the other. I would like to understand better though various Muslim perspectives. Christianity has a tradition on expounding on what it believes, called Apologetics. Maybe take it as they have a lot to apologize about. I'm not aware of many Muslim apologetics, and am interested in explanations. i think there is a general lack of awareness of it in the west.

Christianity has the same problems of taking scripture out of context, and using it to justify a particular purpose, oftentimes something atrocious.

Question about the Muslims who misuse and commit atrocities. Misguided or ignorant as they might be, are they also considered part of the Ummah?
In my understanding there is mutual mistrust and negative looking towards the other between the "Christian world" (by this I mean also people who maybe don't feel Cristian but are inheriting Europe's past) and the "Muslim world". I hope I could put into words what I meant. In my opinion this is cause by geographical proximity and historical enmities. Europe has been in war with Middle East even before either Christianity or Islam, not with China for example (those wars do not give a long enough history).

Both sides have written, represented and thought of the other side badly in middle ages and this has been inherited to an extent despite our more free access to information.

Actually I have heard of apologizes from the Muslim side.

Some Muslims are annoyed by someone expecting them to be apologetic for something that has nothing to do with them personally, also because such requirement is not made for Christians for example. Muslims feel offended by assumptions made. I personally also feel that people should not accuse a wider group of people so easily.

I remember some long time ago, 5+ years ago, again some issue with cartoons, there were various protests. Many of them were against the cartoons. There was also a huge one in London, it was for peace and unity. CNN gave an article of continuation of protests, with a photo from distance and none of posters were readable. I read the article very carefully and there was no mention that this protest was different.

In the end, I cannot know what is going on in heads of people who decide to kill. Hence I cannot give any explanation. And I don't see why you want me or someone else to give it...

Why are there neo-nazis in Germany for example? I have no idea... We can make guesses for both cases, but can we really give an answer. Not sure even if they can or if their answer would be the correct one.
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  #162  
Old 16.01.2015, 19:17
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Apologetics is more about a rhetorical discipline of explaining a position rather than apologizing or saying sorry for something. Maybe my small joke about it did not come across.

Sure, there is a long history of conflict. Moving forward, I was wonder if those who commit atrocious acts today; e.g., Boko Haram, ISIS, etc.; misguided or ignorant they might be, are they considered part of the Muslim Ummah?

Also, given its history, where do you think we are today in terms of reconciling this history of conflict?
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  #163  
Old 16.01.2015, 20:27
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Sure, there is a long history of conflict. Moving forward, I was wonder if those who commit atrocious acts today; e.g., Boko Haram, ISIS, etc.; misguided or ignorant they might be, are they considered part of the Muslim Ummah?
According to Islam only God knows one's true intentions and whether that person is a Muslim. That does not mean actions cannot be denounced.

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Also, given its history, where do you think we are today in terms of reconciling this history of conflict?
It does not look good to me, but maybe I am just a pessimist, maybe because of the continuation of military conflicts so someone must profit out of enmities.

I think despite downsides, UK is doing best. I have impression UK has the biggest portion of converts to Islam among Western countries, many of them being highly educated individuals, and they give a fresh perspective.

Maybe sounds unrelated but I find it to be important I find it weird that some people send "seasons greetings" for Christmas. I don't think that's the way to go.

Despite the war in Bosnia, people with different religious background used to go along well. Many still do, many did also during the war. But in Bosnia you know when is which holiday celebrated by whom. And you congratulate it. I have received and eaten Easter eggs. I don't think people should be afraid/reluctant, but more knowledgeable.

A bit perspective to the original topic... this could be one of upsides of recognizing Islam officially in Switzerland. When it is Christmas or some other religiously important day for Christianity, cover it in Media. Do so for Islam and other religions (I understand covering all would be challenging). Make people know more about each other. Let knowledgeable people explain their views. After all, people have a tendency to be afraid of what they know not.
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  #164  
Old 16.01.2015, 20:47
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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It does not look good to me, but maybe I am just a pessimist, maybe because of the continuation of military conflicts so someone must profit out of enmities.

I think despite downsides, UK is doing best. I have impression UK has the biggest portion of converts to Islam among Western countries, many of them being highly educated individuals, and they give a fresh perspective.

Maybe sounds unrelated but I find it to be important I find it weird that some people send "seasons greetings" for Christmas. I don't think that's the way to go.

Despite the war in Bosnia, people with different religious background used to go along well. Many still do, many did also during the war. But in Bosnia you know when is which holiday celebrated by whom. And you congratulate it. I have received and eaten Easter eggs. I don't think people should be afraid/reluctant, but more knowledgeable.

A bit perspective to the original topic... this could be one of upsides of recognizing Islam officially in Switzerland. When it is Christmas or some other religiously important day for Christianity, cover it in Media. Do so for Islam and other religions (I understand covering all would be challenging). Make people know more about each other. Let knowledgeable people explain their views. After all, people have a tendency to be afraid of what they know not.
The West has a lot of people who have been hurt by other people claiming to be some religious authority. Or they've witnessed abuse done in the name of religion. So have adverse reaction to all religious matters. So a large portion is very adamantly atheist, so would rather do away with words like Christmas.

Christianity allows for a person to walk away from the faith. The whole faith is around the concept of reconciliation, illustrated in the story of Prodigal Son.

Those things like Easter Eggs and Christmas are adopted holidays that were in Europe before Christianity. It was just given Christianized clothing. Some of those are roman pagan festivals celebrated with all kinds of debaucheries. In my personal opinion, traditions and rituals are not the essential parts of Christianity anyway.
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  #165  
Old 16.01.2015, 21:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Those things like Easter Eggs and Christmas are adopted holidays that were in Europe before Christianity. It was just given Christianized clothing. Some of those are roman pagan festivals celebrated with all kinds of debaucheries. In my personal opinion, traditions and rituals are not the essential parts of Christianity anyway.
I guess pretty much everyone knows that

But anti-religious sentiment, that you mentioned, in general may prove more difficult to overcome. One my French Christian friend disliked French for their anti-religiousness. From his point of view, average people in France do not have neutral but anti-religious attitude that made him uncomfortable in his home country.

On the other hand I think new generation did not have that much to do with downsides of church but is interested how things go long way...
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  #166  
Old 16.01.2015, 23:54
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I was not saying that it should be enforced, i was just stating that its a perfct system. And that system is for the personal lives, bussiness life, family life, health life -evrything. And islam then is spread by example (but ofcourse having.knowledge of it too and understanding so you can.explain to people and.answer their.questions) people.are very attracted to the high morales and simple but beautiful lifestyle. There was a video on youtube an english man was.explaining with historical facts - but i also came across an american who had a different version- but i didnt hear many facts there. You can try to find them if you like and get an idea on how.islam.spreads. i was at an event today we.watched a bbc clip about the ottomans (from turkey -someone posted before.that they have eradicated people of other religions- not true- britain, the french had a role im that crounty too, the french present had visited it in the 1990's for.a parade -im sorry my facts are vague ,abit from here and abit from there. I great fact that is away from politics- this one is a better example- it said that jews were beig expelled from europe and were allowed in the land of the ottomans. They are descenteds of spain and they speak a mixture of spanish and hebrew mixed with turkish -the man said they were very grateful- but you would, if your life and family was saved and you could live in peace. And stories like this we learn from the life of the prophet - 6th century.
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  #167  
Old 17.01.2015, 00:24
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Crazygingo that link was not about religo. It was something else. You can post the actual thing. Hopefully i can look at it and reply.
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  #168  
Old 17.01.2015, 00:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Frankly e.i, and with lots of respect, you do want to put some substance on the bone you try to present. Absent that you're doing your case a serious disservice.
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  #169  
Old 17.01.2015, 01:26
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I should highlight that I absolutely abhor all forms of totalitarianism, which certainly includes each of the 3 Abrahamic religions but also includes other forms of political oppression such as that practiced by innumerable historical regimes and several present regimes - including, unfortunately, that of the country I call my home:
I would like to point out that early Islamic state's governance was somewhere between democracy and meritocracy.

First four "caliphs" (actually they never assumed such a title, but only called themselves "leader of believers") were elected by a council. In their decisions they consulted populance.

There is a famous case when Omar, second "caliph" wanted to introduce a quota on money groom gave to his bride as marriage gift (usually money, gold, livestock, etc.) because in some cases the gifts were reaching huge amounts. Then an elderly lady in mosque stood up and said who are you to take away a right given to women by God and the prophet. Omar said that he was wrong and lady was right and gave up on his law proposal.
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Old 17.01.2015, 01:55
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I think the Quran is worth a read through to get some understanding and context. I'm surprised at how many Muslims are unwilling or unable to cite it as a source for discussion. I'm not sure if Muslims are allowed to openly discuss it.
If you visit the Ahmadiyya Mosque in Zürich, they show you a collection or more than 100 Koran translations (more than 100 languages. But
A) officially a Koran quote has to be in Arabic
B) the command of Arabic among non-Arab Muslims often is appalling
C) Many Muslims base their religious ideas on the sayings of their Imam



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As for storyline, it chronicles the military conquest of polytheists in Mecca. A major theme was the economic oppression of early Muslims by the polytheists, and the justification for liberation.
the oppression was mostly political and many of the more harsh phrases of Prophet Mohammed are from that period










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The Quran also shows some beautiful concepts of charity, peace, brotherhood and unity amongst Muslims. For the vast majority of Muslims today with some degree of affluence, this is their expression of Islam. They are not in Jihad mode, and would like to spread peace and unity throughout the world through Dawa. So for them, they assert it is a religion of peace. In their circumstances, I suppose one can accept it as true.
correct. THIS is the view even among conservative clerics



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It is a little disingenuous to say one is the real Islam, and the other does not represent Islam. When terrorists attack and shock, the quick response is to distance oneself, and claim those aren't real Muslims and does not represent Islam. But both of these are circumstantial applications of the same Islam.
A) Islam is not represented by below 5% minorities
B) But the minorities are Muslims, just as the Zeugen Jehovas are Christians

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I don't see how it is anti-Islamic nor Islamophobic to point out these attributes when it is written in the Quran. Denying it denies a known attribute of Islam. I understand it is politically inconvenient. But is not a burden placed on it by those who point it out when it is true. I think it would be more of an injustice to Islam to be untruthful about it

it IS anti-Islamic / Islamophobe to declare those "attributes" to be typical and representative of Islam


***********************************


a real Problem of course is that most normal Muslims cannot understand what some radicals


**************************************************




and for your amusement two quotes out of the Bible
if you love your wife you have to beat her
the wife is to be subordinate to the man
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  #171  
Old 17.01.2015, 02:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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the only thing philosophically significant about any of the Abrahamic religions is the Christian concept of forgiveness, which differs in very important ways from Judaism. I say this, of course, knowing that the Christian concept of forgiveness was utterly perverted by the Catholic Church and remains perverted to this day. but at least in terms of the development of western philosophical thought, the Christian concept of forgiveness represented a quantum leap forward from Judaism.

from a purely philosophical perspective, at least in terms of western thought, Islam represented a significant step backwards, especially with respect to the issue of forgiveness (again, recognizing that even the Christian concept has long since been perverted and was certainly perverted at the time of the rise of Islam). in fact, if you look solely at the manner in which forgiveness is handled (or meant to be handled) in each of the 3 religions, it explains at least part of the fundamental disconnects we are seeing in so many places around the world.

I don't say any of this to suggest that Christian thought is any better than any other, since I think all organized religion is the root cause of every single tragedy and horror man has committed against his fellow man in the last 2,000+ years.


In Islam, it is God who FORGIVES. Each SURA in the Koran starts with the PREAMBLE in the name of God, the merciful, the compassionate ... bi ussum Allah, al rahim al rahman .... In Islam, Prophet ISA (Jesus) is THE messenger who informed mankind about the pardon by God
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  #172  
Old 17.01.2015, 02:11
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I was not saying that it should be enforced, i was just stating that its a perfct system. And that system is for the personal lives, bussiness life, family life, health life -evrything. And islam then is spread by example (but ofcourse having.knowledge of it too and .

in politics and religion, what is perfect to one person is rubbish to the next and the other way round.
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  #173  
Old 17.01.2015, 02:53
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I would like to point out that early Islamic state's governance was somewhere between democracy and meritocracy.

First four "caliphs" (actually they never assumed such a title, but only called themselves "leader of believers") were elected by a council. In their decisions they consulted populance.

There is a famous case when Omar, second "caliph" wanted to introduce a quota on money groom gave to his bride as marriage gift (usually money, gold, livestock, etc.) because in some cases the gifts were reaching huge amounts. Then an elderly lady in mosque stood up and said who are you to take away a right given to women by God and the prophet. Omar said that he was wrong and lady was right and gave up on his law proposal.
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I was not saying that it should be enforced, i was just stating that its a perfct system. And that system is for the personal lives, bussiness life, family life, health life -evrything. And islam then is ...
... like this we learn from the life of the prophet - 6th century.

I am often reminded of the previous height of Islamic culture. What do you think happened since then? What do you think is happening now? And maybe more of a direct question, you don't need to answer this, but why have you chosen to live in a non-Islamic country like Switzerland instead of existing Islamic country where they have Sharia?
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Old 17.01.2015, 06:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I am often reminded of the previous height of Islamic culture. What do you think happened since then? What do you think is happening now? And maybe more of a direct question, you don't need to answer this, but why have you chosen to live in a non-Islamic country like Switzerland instead of existing Islamic country where they have Sharia?

First, THIS here shows what real Islam IS
---
When Coulibay entered the kosher shop guns blazing, Lassana Bathily, a Muslim empoyee of the shop, ushered customers into a refrigeration room in the basement and hid them there, after turning off the refrigeration unit. He managed to escape from the shop and gave the police information about what was going on inside. I think he was also the person who gave the police the key for the rollerdoor. All of the people he managed to hide, survived.

In all the Arab countries, only Saudi Arabia and the Emirate of Sharjah, an UAE member, have Shariah, while all the others have not. The KSA and Sharjah do NOT allow Immigration in a real way. Outside the Arab World, only Iran and to a minor extent Pakistan and Afghanistan, have the Shariah. So that interested persons do not have it so easy to find a Shariah country to go to

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  #175  
Old 17.01.2015, 10:59
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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people.are very attracted to the high morales and simple but beautiful lifestyle. There was a video on youtube an english man was.explaining with historical facts -
True. Back to organised religion: you'd expect the clergy to lead a simple, if not ascetic life, you'd expect churches to exhibit less opulence....That is not to say I don't like cathedrals and their architecture, or that I really mind seeing priests driving luxury cars, but if I'd have to choose I'd rather direct all the church taxes to people of this world who don't even have access to potable water, or medical care (shockingly large numbers of people still die of ridiculous medical causes for this century), or schools.. I think that would make a better world, which should be in the spirit of every religion isn't it?
Anyway, in my view religion should be totally separated from the state.
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Old 17.01.2015, 12:22
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I would like to point out that early Islamic state's governance was somewhere between democracy and meritocracy.

First four "caliphs" (actually they never assumed such a title, but only called themselves "leader of believers") were elected by a council. In their decisions they consulted populance.

There is a famous case when Omar, second "caliph" wanted to introduce a quota on money groom gave to his bride as marriage gift (usually money, gold, livestock, etc.) because in some cases the gifts were reaching huge amounts. Then an elderly lady in mosque stood up and said who are you to take away a right given to women by God and the prophet. Omar said that he was wrong and lady was right and gave up on his law proposal.
I think you actually meant "democracy" and "autocracy", although the use of the word "democracy" would hardly be appropriate given the historical reality. importantly, however, what we are writing about is political history, and should therefore have no connection whatsoever to matters of faith. confusing the two has been the source of much of man's violence against his fellow man since time immemorial, including the violence caused by the split between Sunni and Shia. whatever God may or may not have said to Muhammed (and you are free to believe whatever you choose in that regard), he did not say it to any of the first 4 caliphs, and they are nothing more than political historical figures.

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Anyway, in my view religion should be totally separated from the state.
the fundamental issue is that separation of religion and state is not possible under Islam, the premise of the faith is utterly intertwined with the premise of its political purpose.
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Old 17.01.2015, 12:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Anyways, throughout history Muslim armies did conquer many places (should they have conquered is another question, I guess it was just a political thing), including Mecca, and communities there were not murdered. They were free to practice Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc.
Unfortunately, religion was only a part of society. Most of those places were left behind the West in many regards. The Ottoman Empire gave the privilege of keeping their faith to Christians who were part of the Byzantine Empire, prior to Ottoman conquest, true. But they did it to keep them somehow not rebelling too much. Don't mix up tolerance and politics. Besides non-Muslims also enjoyed the "privilege" to pay higher taxes...anyway, of course there were periods of this empire which were considered "illuminist", which could be said of every empire. None of them were fair to everyone.

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Old 17.01.2015, 13:15
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

To go back to the beginning- my answer is a clear NO- but like Tom, and I don't think any Church should have official status- or receive taxes unless voluntary.

BUT- the excellent social work they do, out of their own pockets, will have to be done and be paid for somehow- and that will mean higher taxes and a lot of readjustment in services.
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  #179  
Old 17.01.2015, 13:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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True. Back to organised religion: you'd expect the clergy to lead a simple, if not ascetic life, you'd expect churches to exhibit less opulence....That is not to say I don't like cathedrals and their architecture, or that I really mind seeing priests driving luxury cars, but if I'd have to choose I'd rather direct all the church taxes to people of this world who don't even have access to potable water, or medical care (shockingly large numbers of people still die of ridiculous medical causes for this century), or schools.. I think that would make a better world, which should be in the spirit of every religion isn't it?
Anyway, in my view religion should be totally separated from the state.
There is nothing wrong with prosperity and wealth. Its the natural outcome of living intelligently, morally and correctly. I don't think there is anything wrong with displays of grandeur of cathedrals and architecture. It is a form of worship, and it does propel human achievements forward. What is wrong is if the prosperity and wealth is the objective in itself, in lieu of living morally. Greed.

In regards to separation of church and state, in theory, church and state should be able to integrate well. Cities like Geneva and Zuerich were city-states built and governed through theological concepts. Small villages were religious communities. Religion can provide the social cohesion a community needs to tackle great threats and obstacles. But as we know, humans are subject to corruption. Where it all really goes awry is when religion is hijacked for conquest. The misapplication of religion occurs in political conquest as well as in social conquests.
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Old 17.01.2015, 13:36
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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...Some Muslims are annoyed by someone expecting them to be apologetic for something that has nothing to do with them personally, also because such requirement is not made for Christians for example. ...
Oh but is is.

Just done a quick google autofill check:
Christians apologises for the Crusades
Pope apologises for the Crusades, abuse, inquisition
Church apologises for to Darwin, for inqusisition

For Islam I got: Imam apologised to ISIS - couldn't find any others.

Of course, there are some Muslims who do apologise. E.g. #muslimapologies
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