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Old 12.01.2015, 11:17
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Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/sto...erden-21918085

More and more Muslims in Switzerland would like to see their church recognised as a State Church by the Swiss government.

Advantages:
- taxes
- more state control over religious education

Disadvantages:
- Culture and identity shock for Christianity-based Switzerland
- Possibility of feeling threatened by the Muslim church

America has tried to separate the state from religion but religion still plays an important role in their politics.

Switzerland has never tried to separate the state from religion. However, the Swiss still consider themselves Christian-based, even though the church has little meaning in their lives.

It's an interesting and very emotional concept.

20 Minutes addressed this today in the above mentioned link. There were voices for much for such a discussion but others found it to be the wrong time to address such an issue.

My opinion: I honestly don't know.

Religion is about peace and love. Extremists are about egos and power. In 1291, Switzerland fought to become independent from the Hapsburgs and from any other dominant reigning government. For centuries, the idea of Catholics and Protestants living in peace together in Switzerland was marred by battles and tabus. Today, the tabus have been lifted and there is peace. The dominant role of the church has been weakened in every canton through a high standard of living and education.

Entering a new religion into the state recognised list would result in a huge emotional backlash of wrath fueled by fright and lack of knowledge. Would it be worth going down that road at the present time? Again, I don't know.

Looking forward to your opinions.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:20
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I'd rather see the end of the recognition of churches.

Tom
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:26
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Why not add a poll to this thread since it's a Yes/No question? Everyone can write their justification to their post if they wish.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:30
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'd rather see the end of the recognition of churches.

Tom
As much as I understand your opinion and the reasons behind it, I sincerely don't think that is a realistic option at this time.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:35
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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As much as I understand your opinion and the reasons behind it, I sincerely don't think that is a realistic option at this time.
Well, as long as there are people willing to direct some of their taxes to a "church", have no control on what's happening with their money it's fine by me.
Although I agree with Tom 100%.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:42
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

wow, talk about bad timing.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:47
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I think the Churches are only recognized officially for historical reasons.

If the constitution were to be re-written from scratch today, I think this issue would be solved differently.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:50
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Very good question. Sarkozy in France tried that and he partially succeeded. The challenge is that there is no "one" Islam. People from Turkey, Balkans, Pakistan, North Africa, Middle East have different flavors of islam even within Sunni or Shia communities. Add to that the willingness of some countries to influence their communities living abroad for different reasons. People were scared in France to hear Qatar willing to invest billions of $ in the suburbs to improve life quality (a project defended by Sarkozy)....so it did not happen.

I think what is really central is to have the Swiss authorities require that the Imam of the mosque is someone who has an official diploma or degree from a swiss islamic theology cursus (discussions going around that at Univ. of Fribourg of theology...was in the press a few years ago).
Tax collection should be on voluntary basis ..as there is no notion of excommunication. I would see that only mosques that follow the criteria defined by the swiss islamic authority would receive the subsidies from collected tax. That would define a "label" for mosques and help people in selecting the "right" mosque/imam.

A key point is to get rid of those false imams that propagate hatred and violence.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:52
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

I'm curious to know what percentage of the Swiss population are Muslims. Does anyone know?

If it's a fairly decent percentage (e.g. in relation to the Jewish population in CH), then my answer is "yes" -- if that is the desire of the Muslim population here.

At the same time, however, I do think that religious dogma has no place in politics. I realize that is most likely just wishful thinking, though...
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:56
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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I'd rather see the end of the recognition of churches.

Tom
Don't know whether to thank or groan ...... if it happened, I'd be out of a job.
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Old 12.01.2015, 11:57
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Don't know whether to thank or groan ...... if it happened, I'd be out of a job.
you have your own church?
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:01
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

How is the church tax levied against businesses or other 'juristische Personen'?

Does a business pay the tax equally split among all state churches?
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:03
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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you have your own church?
This is my church
This is where I heal my hurt
It's a natural grace
Of watching young life shape
It's in minor keys
Solutions and remedies
Enemies becoming friends
When bitterness ends
This is my church [3x]

This is my church
This is where I heal my hurt
It's in the world I become
Content in the hum
Between voice and drum
It's in change
The poetic justice of cause and effect
Respect, love, compassion
This is my church
This is where I heal my hurt
For tonight
God is a DJ [3x]
This is my church [3x]
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:05
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Can't we just do away with religion?

If people are fond of believing in something unproven and unlikely, yet very passionate about it, they can practice it in their own homes?

We can remove all associated symbolism, clothing, accessories etc from the public domain.

Just do it in your own homes. I am sure god is accessible there for the believers and needs not a fancy building to be celebrated.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:07
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Same as Tom, remove state/religion ties for all religions.

Absent the above though I think it would be a bad move as Sharia is part of Islam, and by raising Islams status calls to accept the Sharia as actual law (which is simply unacceptable) will increase.

Acceptance as Landeskirche is a kantonal thing, not federal. The Kantons Geneva and Neuenburg are fully laicistic.

Edit:
BfS.ch says, according to the latest poll from 2012:
38.2% roman catholic
26.9% protestant reformed
5.7% other christian communities
4.9% islamic
1.3% other religions/faiths
0.3% jewish
21.4% no religious affiliation

Edit2, payout:
Since this is a kantonal matter there's no general rule. Kanton Solothurn for instance explicitly says to distribute according to number of members. Those interested in a current overview (dated 2012) can check here.

Last edited by Urs Max; 12.01.2015 at 12:30.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:19
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

Hello,
Well this is my first post ever!
I really do like and agree 100% with what MrVertigo mentioned!
MrVertigo has summerized the situation and the answer! the swiss authorities has to set some rules and requirements in order to organize all imam's catagories.

cheers....



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Very good question. Sarkozy in France tried that and he partially succeeded. The challenge is that there is no "one" Islam. People from Turkey, Balkans, Pakistan, North Africa, Middle East have different flavors of islam even within Sunni or Shia communities. Add to that the willingness of some countries to influence their communities living abroad for different reasons. People were scared in France to hear Qatar willing to invest billions of $ in the suburbs to improve life quality (a project defended by Sarkozy)....so it did not happen.

I think what is really central is to have the Swiss authorities require that the Imam of the mosque is someone who has an official diploma or degree from a swiss islamic theology cursus (discussions going around that at Univ. of Fribourg of theology...was in the press a few years ago).
Tax collection should be on voluntary basis ..as there is no notion of excommunication. I would see that only mosques that follow the criteria defined by the swiss islamic authority would receive the subsidies from collected tax. That would define a "label" for mosques and help people in selecting the "right" mosque/imam.

A key point is to get rid of those false imams that propagate hatred and violence.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:28
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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they can practice it in their own homes?
Argh, then we'd have no church bells and I'd never know what time it is.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:31
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Same as Tom, remove state/religion ties for all religions.

Absent the above though I think it would be a bad move as Sharia is part of Islam, and by raising Islams status calls to accept the Sharia as actual law (which is simply unacceptable) will increase.

Acceptance as Landeskirche is a kantonal thing, not federal. The Kantons Geneva and Neuenburg are fully laicistic.

Edit:
BfS.ch says, according to the latest poll from 2012:
38.2% roman catholic
26.9% protestant reformed
5.7% other christian communities
4.9% islamic
1.3% other religions/faiths
0.3% jewish
21.4% no religious affiliation
the funny thing is that all different flavours of christianity are recognized while there would be only one islamic church and no sunni, shia, sufi etc.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:32
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Can't we just do away with religion?

If people are fond of believing in something unproven and unlikely, yet very passionate about it, they can practice it in their own homes?

We can remove all associated symbolism, clothing, accessories etc from the public domain.

Just do it in your own homes. I am sure god is accessible there for the believers and needs not a fancy building to be celebrated.
Kind of like what the Christians did with Pagans?

It would be nice if we could do away with religion, but wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of us to assert and indirectly enforce our own atheism and promote the freedom of speech while, at the same time, prohibiting people from assembling for the sake of worship?

This not to mention the fact that atheism itself is an ideology. So, then, should we just ban the public display of all ideologies and beliefs?

Last edited by Pancakes; 12.01.2015 at 12:42.
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Old 12.01.2015, 12:46
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Re: Should Islam become a recognized church of the State in Switzerland?

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Kind of like what the Christians did with Pagans?

It would be nice if we could do away with religion, but wouldn't it be a bit hypocritical of us to assert and indirectly enforce our own atheism and promote the freedom of speech while, at the same time, prohibiting people from assembling for the sake of worship?
It's not promotion of atheism, it's recognition that people's religious and spiritual beliefs are very diverse and their attachment to said beliefs can evoke great emotion which can result in something all religions claim to despise i.e murder.

Therefore the concept of religion should be a private affair, after all it should only concern the individual who practices it or discovers it for themselves. It should not be forced on people in any capacity, be it through architecture, exclusive clothing, crusades, barbarity etc.

Edit: addressing atheism ideology point, yes, the same applies. The promotion of atheism is the direct result of the intrusion of religion and thus if religion becomes less intrusive atheism does not rear it's head to combat it.
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